IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2006-07-27

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febbHello !20:36
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benjihi febb20:37
febbmexiKON :  hi   are you htere ?20:37
febbhi benji  how are you ?20:37
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benjigood, you?20:37
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febbgood also, thanks....  fighting with Zope3 now  !  ;)20:38
febbwell..  is anything going on over here today ?  seems kind of quiet .20:40
benjinot at the moment, this is normally a pretty quiet channel, lots of busy people :)20:41
febbthats true.....20:41
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febbhad a question for mexiKON  but seems hw is not available now.20:42
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febbre hi21:34
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gabrielboyscould someone help me out a bit, I am writing up a proposal for a web application, and I am looking for some good points on why we should use Zope322:08
benjigabrielboys: I think Theuni has some good material on that, but I don't know where it is at the moment (and he's probably AFK)22:10
benjigabrielboys: what kind of "good points" are you looking for?  from a development standpoint, admin, other?22:14
gabrielboyssorry got distracted there22:18
gabrielboysdevelopment, stability, extensability22:18
benjiare you/they already Python programmers?22:18
gabrielboysthey have a zope2 app22:18
gabrielboysI have done some python22:19
gabrielboysand the person that developed it for them no longer works tehre22:19
benjidown side is Z3 is quite different from Z2, the up side is that it's almost entirely better :)22:19
gabrielboysI guess from my point of view22:19
gabrielboysat this point22:19
benjiit's also possible to use Five to more slowly migrate from Z2 to Z322:20
gabrielboysZope3 seems really good if you are going to need to have the system be accessed from a lot of different angles, webDAV, FTP, HTTP, etc.22:20
gabrielboysbut not sure how well suited it is to just create a fairly straightforward web app, mainly due to the learning curve22:20
benjiahh, actually /I/ don't think so, that's one of the downfalls of Z2: try to conflate too many things into one package22:20
gabrielboysyeah we talked about Five22:21
gabrielboystheir setup is really unstable and confused22:21
benjiit depends mostly on both the sophistication and scale of the app...22:21
gabrielboysso we realized that it is pretty much a rewrite, so we are looking at other things than just zope22:21
benji...if it's a fairly complex piece of software, the Z3 patterns will really help (components, etc.)22:22
gabrielboysIt is moderately complicated I guess with a fair amount of traffic22:22
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gabrielboysbascially it is a place for people to upload these projects22:22
gabrielboysand have discussions and such22:22
gabrielboysas well as view others projects and that kind of thing22:22
gabrielboysnothing too crazy complicated22:22
gabrielboyslike a complicated buiness system or something22:22
gabrielboysI guess the other front runner right now is ruby on rails22:23
gabrielboysso I am just looking for good and bad points on each22:23
gabrielboysI figured this would be a good place to ask about Zope goodness22:23
benjiI can't speak much to Ruby or Rails, from what I've seen both are pretty immature22:24
oferwanybody knows if they going to translate this page to english ?
oferwmy german is still not good to read it :)22:24
benjiand rails is really meant to be used for a specific flavor of app22:24
gabrielboysright, I have more personal experience with RoR, but it is still fairly new22:24
gabrielboysyeah I think that fits for this project, it is just a web app22:24
gabrielboysbut... hence why I am researching22:24
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gabrielboysI guess what I am concerned about is spending a lot of time getting up and running with Zope3 and having it be overkill for what we need22:27
benjiperhaps you could have a couple sprints, one to do a prototype in RoR and one in Z322:29
benjithe main problem with that is that it's hard to tell if any issues you have are "real" or not, and if the ease/difficulty of getting started will continue for the entire project22:30
benji(I'm thinking about how easy it is to get started with PHP, but then a couple weeks later you want to kill yourself :)22:30
Theunioferw:  there is a translation around22:30
gabrielboysI have done a fair amount of research on Zope322:30
gabrielboysand it is hard to tell exactly where I am in the learning process22:31
gabrielboysI like the ideas, seems like it is really cool once you get things going22:31
benjiyep, there's a lot of good code/patterns in Z3 that apply to more than web apps22:31
oferwTheuni: can you give me the link?22:32
Theunioferw: --- it's not exactly the same thing, but it describes the main issues22:32
Theunioferw:  see two lines above?22:33
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oferwTheuni: I saw that first before going to the gemran website22:34
oferwI saw it first on plone.org22:34
Theunioh alright22:34
Theuniwhat else do you want to know?22:34
Theuniwe're a german-speaking focussed usergroup, so the materials are almost completely exclusively in german :)22:34
TheuniOf course, english speaking visitors and speakers are welcome as well. :)22:35
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oferwI wish to be in the event22:35
oferwbut for now I am staying here22:35
oferwso it seems that the only way is to impove my german22:36
Theuniwhere are you anyway?22:43
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gabrielboysbenji: out of curiosity when you say code/patterns, is there a place to reference said patterns?  Or is it more like just communal knowledge type of thing?22:48
oferwTheuni: israel22:52
oferwbut no zope community here for now22:53
benjigabrielboys: unfortunately those things aren't written down in a central place22:53
Theuniknow any good jiddish? that might work for a while in Germany :)22:53
oferwno :)22:54
oferwbut I am trying to learn german for a while22:54
oferwnot easy22:54
Theunii know22:54
Theuniit's hard for germans as well22:54
Theuninot many perform good22:54
oferwalso long words22:56
TheuniWe have a recursive syntax for that!22:58
oferwwhat you mean22:59
TheuniWe have a syntax that allows you to recursively buidl those long words. You can always take to nouns and join them to a new one.23:01
Theuniad infinitum23:01
Theunis/to nouns/two nouns/23:01
oferwstill need to practice23:02
oferwand learn words23:02
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Theunibenji:  nice to see the real-browser-branch coming along23:11
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benjiyeah, Theuni, I wish I had more time for it23:16
Theunijust a short question: are you adding tests along the way? i noticed a fairly deep change in the main loop adding a new argument, but saw no test for it ...23:18
TheuniI know it's a working branch, I just am afraid I would forget about asking that question later :)23:18
gabrielboysbenji: Thanks for all the input23:19
gabrielboysbenji: I really appreciate it23:20
benjiglad to help23:20
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benjiTheuni: It's pretty much a prototype at the moment, but I have been testing what would be good to test, I'll probably start a fresh branch next time I work on it because I think I've shaken most of the details out23:50
Theuniah alright23:50
* Theuni shuts up23:50
benjiit would be nice to add that argument to `run`, but it turns out I won't need it, I think I have a better way to work things than starting a new server23:51
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