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| febb | hi all | 02:21 |
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| xyld | trying to track down a problem with traversal and Five ... anyone know where requests for things starting with __ get filtered out? | 04:52 |
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| *** philiKON changes topic to "logs available at http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs/ || paste code examples into http://zope3.pastebin.com/ or http://paste.plone.org/ || bug day TODAY, live at http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev" | 06:33 | |
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| baijum | hi all | 06:54 |
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| baijum | can anyone help me in http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/673 ? | 07:41 |
| baijum | make a test release as said here: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2006-June/019549.html | 07:42 |
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| eins | hi | 08:00 |
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| SmokeyD | morning | 09:25 |
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| baijum | there is syntax error from http://svn.zope.org/?rev=69460&view=rev | 09:43 |
| baijum | can anyone verify this is ok: http://paste.plone.org/10289 | 09:43 |
| baijum | I am not sure about it, because there is no test suite | 09:44 |
| baijum | erlier it was : base_dir = os.path.dirname(zope.__file__)[:-4] | 09:44 |
| baijum | but now there is two 'dirname' ? | 09:45 |
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| * baijum understands syntax error will only get when installing unless there is not test cases?! | 09:47 | |
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| romanofski | morjens | 09:53 |
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| tlotze | hi | 10:40 |
| baijum | hi | 10:40 |
| tlotze | How can I take the external_edit tab away from an object whose class is a subclass of zope.app.file.File? | 10:40 |
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| baijum | srichter, ayt? | 10:44 |
| srichter | yes | 10:52 |
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| baijum | sritcher, I was going to ask about this : http://paste.plone.org/10290 (it's committed now) | 11:09 |
| baijum | there was not test cases for that module, so at first I confused about the syntax error. | 11:10 |
| srichter | ok | 11:15 |
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| baijum | sritcher, can you help me to fix this, http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/673 | 11:29 |
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| d2m | what happened to apidoc ? http://localhost:8080/++apidoc++ throws an "NotFound: Object: <zope.app.folder.folder.Folder object at 0xb6ee2dec>, name: u'++apidoc++'" in the trunk | 11:36 |
| baijum | d2m, it's not working in 3.3 branch too here | 11:43 |
| d2m | baijum: yes, i just did a svn up (last was 2 days ago) and its broken now | 11:43 |
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| baijum | d2m, no change in `zope.app.apidoc` other than http://svn.zope.org/?rev=69460&view=rev in last few days (I reverted it in my copy, but still not working), so problem lies somewhere else | 11:53 |
| d2m | baijum: seems some goofie changed default devmode to off (from on before) | 11:57 |
| d2m | baijum: this is hell with a customized zope.conf | 11:57 |
| d2m | baijum: http://svn.zope.org/Zope3/trunk/zope.conf.in?rev=69554&r1=39582&r2=69554 | 11:58 |
| d2m | baijum: http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/507 | 12:02 |
| d2m | i wonder why i | 12:02 |
| d2m | need to consume collector issues to get vital information on configuration changes :( | 12:03 |
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| baijum | d2m: :) | 12:13 |
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| philiKON | hi fellas. let's fix some bugs | 12:43 |
| baijum | hi philiKON | 12:43 |
| baijum | let me commit this small doc fix (not critical :) http://paste.plone.org/10291 | 12:43 |
| philiKON | devmod? | 12:44 |
| philiKON | i think it's called developer-mode | 12:44 |
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| baijum | philiKON, can you verify the patch given here http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/673 | 12:56 |
| baijum | http://zissue.berlios.de/z3/configure.in.diff2 | 12:57 |
| philiKON | looks *very* cryptic to me | 13:00 |
| philiKON | baijum, btw, devmode? i think it's called developer-mode in zope.conf | 13:00 |
| philiKON | hmm, no you're right | 13:00 |
| philiKON | devmode | 13:00 |
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| regebro | Hi philiKON, Hi faassen. | 13:03 |
| regebro | Meh, zope.org just died. :( | 13:04 |
| philiKON | heya | 13:04 |
| philiKON | are you serious? | 13:04 |
| philiKON | fuck | 13:04 |
| philiKON | baijum, what's wrong with the original patch of issue 673? | 13:05 |
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| faassen | hey | 13:05 |
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| philiKON | looks like it's back up again | 13:10 |
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| baijum_ | philiKON, original patch by thorsig may be enough for issue 673, I was just playing around... | 13:18 |
| philiKON | baijum_, fix it :) | 13:19 |
| baijum_ | philiKON, you mean the new one is ok? verified it? | 13:21 |
| philiKON | not sure how much my opinion counts, but i dislike it :( | 13:22 |
| philiKON | the arithmetic isn't that hard. your patch makes it seem pretty complex. i didn't even pretend to understand it | 13:23 |
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| philiKON | baijum, something wrong with your inet connection? | 13:24 |
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| baijum | philiKON: yes | 13:24 |
| philiKON | baijum, btw, your patch regarding #507. you were right and i was wrong | 13:24 |
| philiKON | it's devmode, not developer-mode | 13:25 |
| philiKON | i think the zcml feature is called developer-mode | 13:25 |
| philiKON | very confusing | 13:25 |
| baijum | ok, will commit a new one now | 13:25 |
| baijum | philiKON, regarding 673, you mean the new patch is ok? verified it? | 13:25 |
| philiKON | [12:23] philiKONnot sure how much my opinion counts, but i dislike it :( | 13:26 |
| philiKON | [12:23] philiKONthe arithmetic isn't that hard. your patch makes it seem pretty complex. i didn't even pretend to understand it | 13:26 |
| philiKON | btw, *you* are supposed to verify patches... | 13:26 |
| philiKON | make sure they work | 13:26 |
| faassen | okay, Philipp, gimme an issue. | 13:28 |
| philiKON | faassen, pick one :) | 13:29 |
| faassen | argh, okay, I will then. | 13:29 |
| philiKON | i mean, i could always give you one if you want one assigned | 13:29 |
| philiKON | but i take it it's easier if you pick one yourself | 13:30 |
| faassen | is it true there's only a single zope 3 issue open? | 13:30 |
| philiKON | huh? | 13:30 |
| philiKON | ah, you mean zope 3.3 | 13:30 |
| philiKON | yes | 13:30 |
| faassen | cool. | 13:30 |
| philiKON | but there are plenty of critical ones | 13:30 |
| faassen | shoot. | 13:30 |
| faassen | but they're critical for Zope 3.n where n > 3, right? :) | 13:31 |
| philiKON | n >= 3 | 13:31 |
| philiKON | :) | 13:31 |
| faassen | you have an off by one error there.. :) | 13:31 |
| philiKON | ok, let's go home then ;) | 13:31 |
| philiKON | i'll take 583 for warm up | 13:31 |
| philiKON | or perhaps i should worry about 673 first, to get it out of the way | 13:31 |
| philiKON | baijum, still there? | 13:31 |
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| regebro | OK, anything critical that looks doable I can take care of? | 13:48 |
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| philiKON | regebro, check the tracker | 13:50 |
| philiKON | regebro, take any critical issue you like | 13:50 |
| regebro | philiKON: Yeah, but there is so much! :) But I'm looking through it to see if I can find anything. | 13:50 |
| regebro | 680 and 551 look doable. | 13:51 |
| philiKON | regebro, do it :) | 13:52 |
| philiKON | btw, with 680 i think only .html shouldn't be a page template resource | 13:52 |
| philiKON | things ending in .pt should still be | 13:52 |
| regebro | Right. | 13:54 |
| philiKON | regebro, about 542 | 13:57 |
| philiKON | regebro, you just gotta follow the link :) | 13:57 |
| philiKON | srichter's reply is there | 13:57 |
| regebro | Oh. :) | 13:57 |
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| faassen | I'm looking at issue 562 | 14:04 |
| faassen | I'm going to try to verify that the object copier doesn't copy a version but makes a reference, even though that sounds like a stunning flaw. | 14:04 |
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| faassen | hey J1m | 14:05 |
| philiKON | faassen, write that as a follow-up to the issue :) | 14:05 |
| faassen | okay, it doesn't happen for DTML Page. | 14:06 |
| philiKON | i dont' understand the issue | 14:06 |
| philiKON | he's saying zope.copypastemove creates references, not copies? | 14:07 |
| faassen | yeah, that's what he's stating. | 14:07 |
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| philiKON | i odn't understand the last paragraph in the issue | 14:08 |
| faassen | well, he claims that the object copier only copies the reference. | 14:08 |
| philiKON | reference to what? | 14:08 |
| faassen | so that if he changes something in the original, it also changes in the copy, or vice versa. | 14:08 |
| philiKON | that's weird | 14:08 |
| faassen | to the object being copied. i.e. there's no copy. | 14:09 |
| faassen | yeah, it's definitely not what the implementation does. | 14:09 |
| philiKON | i wonder how it is with perrsistent references | 14:09 |
| faassen | it might be something special is up for names, though. | 14:09 |
| philiKON | say, you have two *persistent* objects, a and b | 14:09 |
| faassen | anyway, there's definitely pickling going on and such. | 14:09 |
| philiKON | a.b = b | 14:09 |
| philiKON | now you make a copy of a | 14:09 |
| philiKON | call it c | 14:09 |
| philiKON | c = copy(a) | 14:09 |
| philiKON | c.b is b ? | 14:09 |
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| faassen | I don't think so, but we could verify it. | 14:10 |
| philiKON | perhaps he's epxeriencing something like this | 14:10 |
| faassen | If object in the location refer to objects outside of the | 14:10 |
| faassen | location, then the copies of the objects in the location refer to | 14:10 |
| faassen | the same outside objects. | 14:10 |
| faassen | but he's just talking about a normal attribute. | 14:10 |
| philiKON | well, not sure if location means zope.location | 14:11 |
| faassen | anyway, lunchtime. | 14:11 |
| philiKON | perhaps it means persistent references | 14:11 |
| faassen | this si in zope.location.pickling :) | 14:11 |
| philiKON | ah | 14:11 |
| philiKON | :) | 14:11 |
| faassen | lunchtime. | 14:11 |
| faassen | I suspect his problem might have something to do with the name of the object. | 14:11 |
| faassen | which is managed rather specially compared to any other object. | 14:11 |
| philiKON | hmm | 14:11 |
| faassen | anyway, his bug report is definitely not correct in that copies are being made, not just references. | 14:11 |
| philiKON | his logic in the namechooser seems bogus too | 14:11 |
| faassen | idle for lunch | 14:11 |
| faassen | yeah. | 14:11 |
| philiKON | i would just rejec tit | 14:12 |
| faassen | so I'm going to do a followup and decrease the importance of this one. :) | 14:12 |
| philiKON | ;) | 14:12 |
| philiKON | yes please | 14:12 |
| philiKON | actually, ask for some more feedback too | 14:12 |
| faassen | afk | 14:12 |
| philiKON | eet smakelik | 14:12 |
| philiKON | or however you spell it ;) | 14:12 |
| d2m | would it make sense to add 'developer mode' information to IRuntimeInfo ? | 14:18 |
| regebro | Anybody keeping track of bugs fixed? | 14:18 |
| MJ | How much formality do people expect for cleaning up the zope.wfmc events? | 14:19 |
| MJ | There are events missing, and the events that are emitted mostly don't have interfaces. | 14:19 |
| MJ | I'd love to go in and fix those shortcomings on the trunk, but is a proposal needed? A collector entry? | 14:20 |
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| * MJ dislikes process. | 14:20 | |
| regebro | I seem to not be able to close bugs in the Zope3-tracker. If somebody want to fix that that would be welcom. | 14:20 |
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| philiKON | regebro, sure. did you port your fix to both trunk and 3.3? | 14:20 |
| philiKON | d2m, good idea! | 14:20 |
| regebro | philiKON: Not yet. | 14:20 |
| philiKON | regebro, then i'm not closing the issue yet :) | 14:21 |
| regebro | OK. :) | 14:21 |
| philiKON | MJ, is there an issue? | 14:21 |
| philiKON | (in the collector?) | 14:21 |
| philiKON | J1m, got a sec? | 14:23 |
| J1m | sure | 14:24 |
| philiKON | about http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/673 | 14:24 |
| philiKON | (making zpkg understand which python versions are acceptable, etc.) | 14:24 |
| philiKON | i find it very frustrating. bash is a horrible scripting language | 14:24 |
| philiKON | the original submitter did not submit a patch, just a "solution". and i can't make much sense of the other patch | 14:25 |
| J1m | I agree, which is why I stayed away from it. :/ | 14:25 |
| philiKON | i wonder if we can just let go of this issue | 14:25 |
| J1m | Yup | 14:25 |
| philiKON | given that we might mvoe away from zpkg in 3.4 anyways | 14:25 |
| J1m | I think it is fairly serious though, isn't it? | 14:25 |
| philiKON | until then i'm tempted to fill the ACCEPTABLE list with "2.4.4 2.4.5 2.4.6" etc. :) | 14:25 |
| philiKON | well, the script tries to do all sorts of magic to find the "right" python | 14:26 |
| J1m | Oh. Is that a work around? | 14:26 |
| philiKON | i think so | 14:26 |
| J1m | works for me. | 14:26 |
| philiKON | ok | 14:26 |
| philiKON | i'll test this first | 14:26 |
| J1m | I certainly don't want people to be unable to install Zope 3 w p2.4.4. | 14:26 |
| philiKON | agreed | 14:27 |
| philiKON | i think configure.in does way too much magic. as a comment says, it could be much simpler. i wouldn't mind having tos pecify --with-python at all times | 14:27 |
| philiKON | that *always* works, btw | 14:27 |
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| philiKON | you can always, even now, say --with-python | 14:27 |
| philiKON | though i admit it's not obvious when configure yells at you for not having the right python version | 14:27 |
| J1m | I think that the goal is t avoid wasting time on responding to problems reported using the wrong version of Python. | 14:28 |
| philiKON | hmm | 14:28 |
| J1m | I suppose though that that check could be done later in the process. | 14:28 |
| philiKON | in python :) | 14:29 |
| J1m | But let's not worry about it util we have a re[lacement for the current mechanism. | 14:29 |
| J1m | Yes. | 14:29 |
| philiKON | agreed | 14:29 |
| J1m | How many test failures were you seeing? Just that one? | 14:30 |
| J1m | zeo | 14:31 |
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| philiKON | J1m, yes | 14:31 |
| J1m | hm, | 14:31 |
| J1m | I thnk I may have fixed that one. | 14:31 |
| J1m | I'm still getting another 1 or 2. (One is intermittent.) | 14:32 |
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| philiKON | J1m, adding future python 2.4 versions to acceptable makes it work, though you'll get a warning that you don't have the "optimum" installed. i guess that should be ok for now? | 14:39 |
| J1m | ok | 14:39 |
| philiKON | (I just tested it with a fake future python 2.4 version) | 14:39 |
| regebro | philiKON: OK, 680 is in 3.3 branch too. | 14:39 |
| philiKON | regebro, why don't i see your checkins? | 14:39 |
| philiKON | regebro, are you susbscribed to zope3-checkins? | 14:39 |
| J1m | I just approved that checkin | 14:40 |
| philiKON | thx | 14:40 |
| J1m | People should not have to subscribe | 14:40 |
| regebro | Well, I used to be... I'll make sure again. | 14:40 |
| J1m | I don't want to make people do that. | 14:40 |
| philiKON | yeah... | 14:41 |
| J1m | regebro: did you change your z.o email address? | 14:41 |
| regebro | J1m: not for some time. | 14:41 |
| philiKON | Theuni, ping | 14:41 |
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| regebro | Well, I wasn't subscribed anyway, trying to subscribe now. :) | 14:43 |
| faassen | back from lunch. yay, an issue rejected, lots more to go. :) | 14:47 |
| philiKON | faassen, :) | 14:49 |
| philiKON | now it's me who's off to lunch | 14:49 |
| regebro | Gah! I failed in running ALL the tests, and the fix broke something completely unrelated. :-/ | 14:49 |
| regebro | Aha. The testbrowser has ZPTs with HTML-extension and uses resource directories. Renaming them should solve it. | 14:52 |
| MJ | philiKON: No, there is no issue, at least none that I have put there | 15:00 |
| MJ | philiKON: I just implemented a workflow for a Zope3 project using zope.wfmc | 15:01 |
| MJ | And I got rather intimate with the package, noting that the events are next to useless without interface declarations. | 15:02 |
| MJ | I suspect that noone has been using the package in earnest yet. | 15:02 |
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| Theuni | philiKON: pong | 15:18 |
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| faassen | does anyone know a lot about how exceptions are handled in zope 3? | 15:18 |
| philiKON | Theuni, hi there | 15:18 |
| philiKON | Theuni, why exactly do you prefer another beta? | 15:18 |
| faassen | I think I found a problem with the publisher hiding at least some exception tracebacks. | 15:19 |
| philiKON | what's wrong with a release candidate? | 15:19 |
| philiKON | MJ, i suggest a posting to zope3-dev | 15:19 |
| Theuni | philiKON: in this case just a formality. an rc should be something that *we* expect to be what also could be release. i couldn't tell that after the quality of the first beta. :) | 15:20 |
| Theuni | what's the status of the broken trunk right now? | 15:20 |
| * philiKON points to regebro ? | 15:20 | |
| Theuni | jo | 15:20 |
| philiKON | duno, just got back from lunch | 15:20 |
| Theuni | k | 15:21 |
| philiKON | Theuni, yeah quality of 1st beta was bad. i agree | 15:21 |
| philiKON | Theuni, i'm fine with a 2nd beta tonight | 15:21 |
| philiKON | rc in 1 week from now | 15:21 |
| philiKON | we should probably have a bugday again next thursday | 15:21 |
| regebro | Theuni, philiKON: Running tests for the fix now. | 15:21 |
| Theuni | oki doki | 15:21 |
| philiKON | Theuni, in any case it's a release :) | 15:21 |
| philiKON | Theuni, (re: failing ZEO tests) | 15:22 |
| Theuni | hah | 15:22 |
| Theuni | regebro: i hope you're not running them for the first time now :) | 15:22 |
| regebro | Theuni: Nope, but that was the first time they ran. :) | 15:23 |
| regebro | That is, I ran the tests for the fix for 680 before the checkin, but i actualy didn't tun the tests for the testbrowser. | 15:24 |
| regebro | And they failed. Fixed soon. | 15:24 |
| Theuni | ouch | 15:24 |
| Theuni | btw: i don't like the UI annotations in the style of "you have to turn this switch on to enable this option" ... | 15:25 |
| philiKON | alright! no more 3.3 release bugs | 15:30 |
| philiKON | 16 critical bugs to go | 15:30 |
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| * baijum will be disconnected soon..net is slow here :) | 15:37 | |
| philiKON | where on this earth are you? | 15:37 |
| baijum | philiKON: http://nitc.ac.in | 15:38 |
| philiKON | baijum, take a look at 507 | 15:38 |
| philiKON | Theuni, made some good comments | 15:38 |
| baijum | ok | 15:38 |
| Theuni | ah | 15:41 |
| Theuni | stop | 15:41 |
| Theuni | i'm working on that already :) | 15:41 |
| philiKON | ah | 15:41 |
| Theuni | (notice that the issue is still assigned to me) | 15:41 |
| philiKON | true dat | 15:41 |
| Theuni | :) | 15:41 |
| Theuni | MINE | 15:41 |
| Theuni | MINE | 15:41 |
| Theuni | *EEEEK | 15:41 |
| philiKON | baijum, pick something else then :) | 15:41 |
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| philiKON | hey projekt01! ready to fix some bugs? | 15:43 |
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| philiKON | alright, 15 bugs to go | 15:55 |
| philiKON | i'll be off to help my best friend on her wedding arrangement. couldn't resolve that time conflict today.. i'll be back later to make a beta2 release | 15:56 |
| philiKON | you boys just keep on fixing those bugs :) | 15:56 |
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| faassen | okay, back to this window. | 16:01 |
| faassen | philiKON: I have enountered what looks like a deeper underlying issue for exception handling. | 16:01 |
| philiKON | faassen, i saw your comment | 16:01 |
| * philiKON has to run | 16:02 | |
| faassen | okay, see you. :) | 16:02 |
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| faassen | hey benji | 16:07 |
| benji | hi, faassen; what's up? | 16:08 |
| faassen | benji: bugday stuff | 16:08 |
| faassen | I'm trying to figure out why Zope 3.3 suppresses an exception | 16:08 |
| faassen | then I'm trying to go look into that exception. | 16:08 |
| benji | fun :) | 16:08 |
| faassen | I was going to do the second only, but since the bug was reported something changed that eats exceptions. | 16:08 |
| benji | someone should go on an XXX hunt (I don't know if I'll have time today) | 16:09 |
| benji | If I remember correctly, there are about a half dozen that need looking into. | 16:09 |
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| faassen | somehow in the case of a UnicodeError (in the webdav logic) the content-type doesn't get set in the response header. | 16:20 |
| faassen | and it'll trip over that in that case. | 16:20 |
| faassen | and raise another error masking the real error. | 16:20 |
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| faassen | I'm trying to understand where the content-type was set previously. I can't find relevant changes in zope.publisher.http so far. | 16:21 |
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| regebro | OK starting on #551 | 16:25 |
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| faassen | J1m: hey .. | 16:44 |
| faassen | J1m: do you have some time to talk about some bug that's bugging me? | 16:44 |
| J1m | sure | 16:44 |
| faassen | okay. I'm actually trying to solve this issue, but I ran into another issue. | 16:45 |
| faassen | http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/558 | 16:45 |
| faassen | what's going on is that the error reported to STDOUT is not the same as the one logged in the error reporting utility. | 16:45 |
| faassen | because there's an error that occurs during reporting. | 16:45 |
| faassen | that is, during the reporting to HTTP, evidently. | 16:45 |
| faassen | I'm not sure why that results in the real error not being visible in the shell yet. | 16:46 |
| faassen | anyway, what is going on is that it tries to get a Content-Type from the response, it turns out to be None, and then it bails out as it expects something that starts with 'text/' | 16:46 |
| faassen | somehow this path worked back when the original bug was reported. hm, perhaps that ain't so..the original reporter might've looked in the error reporting utility instead. | 16:47 |
| mgedmin | faassen: I saw that bug recently, I think | 16:48 |
| mgedmin | or something similar | 16:48 |
| mgedmin | the error view should set the content type header | 16:48 |
| faassen | you get some unicode error that's unrelated to the real error (which in this case happens to be a unicode error too) | 16:48 |
| faassen | well, it's not an error view, this is the no-error view default handing. | 16:48 |
| faassen | as far as I understand. | 16:48 |
| mgedmin | http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/686 | 16:49 |
| faassen | yes, that's the same. | 16:49 |
| faassen | I tried adding in the setHeader bit. | 16:49 |
| faassen | but that suppressed any output for me. | 16:49 |
| mgedmin | what about the error reporting utility in the ZMI? | 16:50 |
| faassen | that one gets the right error. | 16:50 |
| faassen | what you describe in that issue looks like the same problem. | 16:50 |
| J1m | I don't have anything to add to this discussion. | 16:50 |
| faassen | heh. :) | 16:50 |
| faassen | I'm wondering whether this is somehow recently triggered. | 16:50 |
| J1m | BTW, it looks like someone needs to go through recent issues and mark them as needed for 3.3, if necessary. | 16:51 |
| mgedmin | as far as I understand there are two problems here: one is that webdav fails with an error, and another is that error reporting fails with another error | 16:51 |
| mgedmin | there's a good rule: "fix error handling first" | 16:51 |
| faassen | mgedmin: yeah, I'm worrying about the latter right now. | 16:51 |
| mgedmin | so that's issue 686 | 16:51 |
| MJ | Quick Q if someone knows the answer: | 16:51 |
| benji | mgedmin: +1 | 16:51 |
| faassen | yeah, I wasn't aware of this issue, but I ran into the same problem. | 16:51 |
| MJ | Is there any access to the current request outside of browser views? | 16:52 |
| MJ | I'd like to retrieve the URL in an event handler down the line. | 16:52 |
| MJ | It's okay if the request isn't available in certain circumstances. | 16:52 |
| MJ | I don't think the request is ever registered in a thread-context.. | 16:53 |
| faassen | MJ: there's a hack. | 16:54 |
| MJ | faassen: Hacks are fine. | 16:54 |
| faassen | request = getInteraction().participations[0] | 16:55 |
| * MJ is looking at the interaction for example.. | 16:55 | |
| MJ | Heh | 16:55 |
| MJ | I was looking right then. Thanks! | 16:55 |
| faassen | from zope.security.management import getInteraction | 16:55 |
| faassen | MJ: busy with workflow, huh? I had the same issue in various workflow handling code. | 16:55 |
| faassen | have a workflow event trigger the sending of an email which needs to display the URL for an object, say. | 16:56 |
| MJ | faassen: Yup. You can get at the process, for example, but the path there ain't in the interfaces.. | 16:56 |
| MJ | Say | 16:56 |
| MJ | Indeed | 16:56 |
| faassen | I was using hurry.workflow though, not the core workflow. I'm curious to find out what your experience with core workflow are. | 16:57 |
| faassen | how to mark an issue for Zope 3.3 release? | 17:00 |
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| Agis | hi | 17:00 |
| faassen | Agis: hey | 17:00 |
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| Agis | faassen: :-) | 17:00 |
| mgedmin | faassen: you said that the fix for 686 "did not work for you" | 17:00 |
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| faassen | mgedmin: yeah, I got no output, but I'll try to verify, perhaps I added it in another spot. | 17:01 |
| faassen | mgedmin: first I want to mark that issue as related to the Zope 3.3 release. | 17:01 |
| mgedmin | what output did you expect? | 17:01 |
| mgedmin | and where? | 17:01 |
| faassen | output on STDOUT, the error report. | 17:01 |
| faassen | anyway, maybe I was missing something, I'll review that. | 17:01 |
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| mgedmin | not all exceptions end up in stdout | 17:01 |
| faassen | you'd expect the exception that shows up in the error log to appear on stdout too.. | 17:02 |
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| faassen | ah, it's either 'critical' *or* Zope 3.3 release. | 17:02 |
| faassen | okay, well, it's critical so it's marked.. | 17:02 |
| faassen | I upped it to critical. | 17:02 |
| mgedmin | if there's a view registered for an exception that doesn't implement ISystemErrorView, or returns False from its isSystemError() method, then that exception will NOT appear in the log file (or in stdout) | 17:02 |
| mgedmin | but it will appear in the error reporting utility in the ZMI | 17:02 |
| mgedmin | this took me a while to figure out when I was writing my own custom exception views | 17:03 |
| faassen | but there's no view registered for this exceptin in my understanding. | 17:03 |
| mgedmin | maybe | 17:03 |
| faassen | I mean, in the case of this unicode error, there doesn't appear to be a view as far as my debugging showed. | 17:03 |
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| faassen | (I'm talking about the underlying unicode error) | 17:04 |
| faassen | I'll verify that too, though. | 17:05 |
| faassen | yeah, no view in this case. | 17:06 |
| J1m | philiKON: were you planning to make the release? | 17:06 |
| faassen | mgedmin: do you know which code is responsible for feeding back the error to STDOUT? | 17:08 |
| mgedmin | I do not remember, but I could find out quickly | 17:08 |
| faassen | mgedmin: let me take a look first, a moment. | 17:09 |
| mgedmin | src/zope/app/publication/zopepublication.py:326 | 17:09 |
| faassen | the exception side effects adapter? | 17:09 |
| mgedmin | that's the code that feeds te error to STDOUT | 17:11 |
| faassen | okay. | 17:11 |
| faassen | interesting. | 17:11 |
| faassen | I wonder why it doesn't hook into the logging code instead. | 17:11 |
| mgedmin | (to the SiteError logger, actually, but the standard zope.conf tells it to use STDOUT, or maybe STDERR) | 17:11 |
| mgedmin | I *think* the intent of that code is that not all exceptions are considered errors (or at least errors that are worth logging) | 17:12 |
| faassen | well, but if errors are logged to the ZMI and *not* to the output | 17:12 |
| faassen | to me that just sounds like you don't want this. | 17:12 |
| mgedmin | good point | 17:12 |
| mgedmin | I just dont' know | 17:12 |
| faassen | I'm trying to figure out where this IExceptionSideEffect is registered. | 17:12 |
| mgedmin | hey, response.handleException is called only if the view is not found | 17:12 |
| mgedmin | and the error is logged to stdout only if the view was found | 17:13 |
| faassen | no, the view is found and set to None | 17:13 |
| faassen | isn't it? | 17:13 |
| mgedmin | and bug 686 only happens in response.handleException | 17:13 |
| faassen | oh, wait, it isn't set to None again. | 17:13 |
| d2m | philiKON: i've added a getDeveloperMode() to IRuntimeInfo, but the changes will affect 4 files (seems no way around) | 17:13 |
| mgedmin | so you will never get the exception in stdout if you can trigger bug 686 | 17:13 |
| mgedmin | at least it appears to me from a cursory glance | 17:13 |
| faassen | yes, but I thought we don't trigger that anymore. | 17:14 |
| faassen | with your fix. | 17:14 |
| faassen | but there's still nothing on STDOUT | 17:14 |
| faassen | (whereas previously the spurious unicode error occurred) | 17:14 |
| mgedmin | my fix is inside handleException | 17:14 |
| mgedmin | the same code path is taken | 17:14 |
| mgedmin | with or without the fix | 17:14 |
| faassen | I'm trying to figure out where in the world it registers the IExceptionsSideEffects adapters. | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | and this code path doesn't contain the logging to SiteError | 17:15 |
| faassen | but I thought you said it was handled in the IExceptionSideEffects code? | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | I'm pretty sure IExceptiosnSideEffects is irrelevant to both issues | 17:15 |
| faassen | oh, I thought you poitned me to that line. | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | I mentioned ISystemErrorView | 17:15 |
| faassen | it might be I shifted a few lines in putting pdb statements. | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | line 326 in my checkout is | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | if (ISystemErrorView.providedBy(view) | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | and view.isSystemError()): | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | sorry about misleading you | 17:16 |
| faassen | oh, sorry, I think I read your line number wrong. | 17:16 |
| faassen | anyway, that code doesn't get executed in my case. | 17:16 |
| faassen | as view is None. I did verify that. | 17:16 |
| faassen | okay. | 17:16 |
| faassen | so that makes sense. | 17:16 |
| faassen | it never gets executed. I get your point now.. | 17:17 |
| faassen | I really wonder what the reasoning is. | 17:18 |
| faassen | I'm going to write a post on that. | 17:18 |
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| agroszer | hi | 18:01 |
| agroszer | in the Collector, is there a kind of "need-more-info" state? | 18:01 |
| agroszer | I'm looking at Issue 541 and unable to recreate the problem | 18:02 |
| benji | agroszer: yes, you put it in that state by adding a comment that says "need more info" :) | 18:02 |
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| benji | hmm, my joke was so bad it made him leave... I'm improving! | 18:16 |
| d2m | Theuni: thanks for creating the 'nodevmode' feature -- i've created a patch to add display of Developer Mode to ../++etc++process/index.html (Runtime Information), should i add it to http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/507 ? | 18:17 |
| regebro | OK, fixed #551 too. | 18:17 |
| Theuni | d2m: thanks. feel free, but reopen it | 18:17 |
| srichter | mmh, I do not like it ;-) | 18:18 |
| srichter | why not have another condition verb instead: not-have | 18:18 |
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| srichter | I would hate to have: feature nofeature all the time, especially since this is not feasible most of the time | 18:19 |
| d2m | Theuni: reopen is 'Accept' ? | 18:19 |
| srichter | Theuni: d2m: what do you think about having "not-have" | 18:19 |
| d2m | srichter: i only test for hasFeature('devmode'), but i don't know how this could be done inside ZCML | 18:20 |
| Theuni | srichter: fine with me, however something more module along the lines of tales' not: would be nice | 18:21 |
| d2m | srichter: not-have is ok with me | 18:21 |
| benji | srichter: or perhaps <have not="devmode" /> | 18:21 |
| Theuni | d2m: resubmit | 18:21 |
| srichter | Theuni: we purposefully keeping zcml conditions very weak | 18:21 |
| Theuni | benji: that doesn't match the current syntax | 18:21 |
| Theuni | srichter: i know. so not-have is fine with me | 18:21 |
| srichter | what does it right now? | 18:21 |
| benji | translate to current syntax and re-apply :) | 18:21 |
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| srichter | currently it does: | 18:22 |
| srichter | <configure zcml:condition="have devmode"> | 18:22 |
| srichter | I suggest: | 18:22 |
| srichter | <configure zcml:condition="not-have devmode"> | 18:22 |
| Theuni | ack | 18:22 |
| Theuni | J1m told me about the intention of keeping the expressiveness weak | 18:23 |
| Theuni | and i agree swith that | 18:23 |
| benji | or <zcml:condition equals="don't-have feature"> :) | 18:23 |
| srichter | I think anything else would require major feature enhancements and increases expressiveness | 18:23 |
| srichter | benji: I am not leaving, so your jokes get better ;-) | 18:23 |
| benji | hah! | 18:23 |
| benji | so if I get good enough, people will join just to hear the jokes... irc stand-up comedy | 18:24 |
| srichter | go benji, he he ha ha lol ... | 18:25 |
| *** srichter changes topic to "logs available at http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs/ || paste code examples into http://zope3.pastebin.com/ or http://paste.plone.org/ || bug day TODAY, live at http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev || benji standup comedy" | 18:25 | |
| benji | LOL! | 18:25 |
| Theuni | i think "don't" is not propper written english! however, SteveA once proposed python extension for "if x ain't y" | 18:27 |
| Theuni | s/propper/proper/ | 18:27 |
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| Theuni | regebro: could you please provide tests when fixing bugs? | 18:28 |
| Theuni | issue 551 does not include a test | 18:29 |
| Theuni | oh. i just saw your comment on the collector | 18:29 |
| Theuni | never mind | 18:29 |
| srichter | Theuni: benji coming from TN will certainly support this syntax | 18:29 |
| srichter | it even feels more natural to him then | 18:30 |
| Theuni | ha-ha | 18:30 |
| benji | +1 on ain't | 18:31 |
| srichter | >>> howdy(benji) | 18:32 |
| benji | then we can have a better alias for hasattr: if x ain't got no "foo" | 18:32 |
| srichter | yo' bro'; what's u'? | 18:32 |
| srichter | >>> "na'ville" ain't states.NICE | 18:32 |
| srichter | False | 18:32 |
| Theuni | from __future__ import slang | 18:33 |
| srichter | >>> benji ain't provides person.interfaces.IRedNeck | 18:36 |
| srichter | True | 18:36 |
| benji | I appreciate the vote of confidence. | 18:38 |
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| regebro | Time for me to go back to vacation. Ciao! | 18:58 |
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| * philiKON is back | 19:22 | |
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| philiKON | Theuni, ayt? | 19:29 |
| Theuni | philiKON: yupp | 19:30 |
| philiKON | i agree with stefan that "nodevmode" and devmode complicates things | 19:30 |
| philiKON | also, what's up with the ftesting-*.zcml clutter now? | 19:30 |
| philiKON | have you tested instances? | 19:30 |
| faassen | okay, I just deferred an issue. I hope we have a workflow to check out deferred issues again later. :) | 19:30 |
| Theuni | sure. anyone who wants to spend time on infrastructure to do a "not-have" is welcome. | 19:31 |
| philiKON | i can do that | 19:31 |
| philiKON | question is whether that counts as a feature :) | 19:31 |
| philiKON | i would say it does | 19:31 |
| Theuni | philiKON: i needed the ftesting environment but without the devmode. as i couldn't get to securitypolicy.zcml from my package i did it on the root. | 19:31 |
| Theuni | yup it does. so trunk only please. :) | 19:32 |
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| Theuni | i haven't tested instances though ... i didn't anticipate a change there ... | 19:32 |
| philiKON | i also think that by introducing the nodevmode feature we have introduced another, well, feature | 19:32 |
| Theuni | let me see | 19:32 |
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| philiKON | i'm just disturbed by the massive infrastructural change you did | 19:33 |
| philiKON | after calling it "an easy one" in the issue | 19:33 |
| philiKON | i'm for the idea, but properly done, on the trunk | 19:33 |
| Theuni | hmm. well. we need that information flag, and i very much don't like the tag on the link, because the devmode-default change needs to be communicated properly in 3.3 not in 3.4. | 19:34 |
| Theuni | as zope 3.3 does not support no-have i consider nodevmode a reasonable workaround | 19:35 |
| philiKON | this zig zag will be hell to document | 19:35 |
| Theuni | what zigzag? | 19:35 |
| philiKON | do it this way in 3.3, that way in 3.4... | 19:35 |
| Theuni | nah. there is no "do it this way" in 3.3 | 19:35 |
| Theuni | it's a workaround. it's not a "do it this way" | 19:36 |
| philiKON | i don't understand why we need nodevmode so badly | 19:37 |
| philiKON | i mean, sure, it's nice having a page at ++apidoc++ that tells users "hey, enable me" | 19:37 |
| Theuni | no, it's necessary to not cause headache because of a policy change. | 19:37 |
| philiKON | what headache? | 19:37 |
| Theuni | see the issue | 19:37 |
| philiKON | ah, because we made devmode off by default | 19:38 |
| philiKON | hmm | 19:38 |
| Theuni | one developer took half an hour to find out that in his instance dev-mode is now off by default | 19:38 |
| Theuni | you can't discover that easily if you migrate existing instances | 19:38 |
| philiKON | hmm | 19:38 |
| philiKON | when was devmode introduced? 3.2? | 19:38 |
| Theuni | no idea | 19:38 |
| philiKON | yup | 19:38 |
| philiKON | seems so | 19:38 |
| Theuni | jup | 19:38 |
| philiKON | i was against having it in zope.conf anyways | 19:38 |
| philiKON | it's a zcml thing | 19:38 |
| philiKON | it doesn't configure a server or a database | 19:39 |
| philiKON | it configured software registrations | 19:39 |
| Theuni | i would it expect to do something like debug mode | 19:39 |
| Theuni | in zope 2 | 19:39 |
| philiKON | i never understood why the devmode zcml feature needed to be special-cased in zope.conf | 19:39 |
| philiKON | Theuni, it isn't the same | 19:39 |
| philiKON | i think that's a false illusion | 19:39 |
| philiKON | anyways | 19:39 |
| philiKON | stopping my rant now :0 | 19:39 |
| Theuni | then it maybe shouldn't be in there. but that's another totally different discussion. | 19:39 |
| philiKON | :) | 19:39 |
| Theuni | k | 19:39 |
| philiKON | yup | 19:39 |
| Theuni | hmm | 19:40 |
| philiKON | i'm still not happy about the ftesting clutter | 19:40 |
| Theuni | i don't think it's a clutter | 19:41 |
| Theuni | why do you think it's a clutter? | 19:41 |
| philiKON | it's 3 files now instead of one. just because of 1 additional zcml feature | 19:41 |
| Theuni | i see that we have to ftesting.zcml around | 19:41 |
| philiKON | and instances don' thave it | 19:41 |
| Theuni | s/to/two/ | 19:41 |
| Theuni | stupid difference to zopeskel | 19:41 |
| Theuni | damnit | 19:41 |
| philiKON | the whole ftesting.zcml thing needs to be rethought too | 19:41 |
| philiKON | i think you might want to take a different approach for your test | 19:42 |
| philiKON | i'm not sure | 19:42 |
| philiKON | shit, we still have 15 open bugs? when we started today it was 16 or something?!? | 19:42 |
| philiKON | what happened? | 19:42 |
| Theuni | maybe. i could be told to remove that "clutter" if you tell me how to replicate the ftesting.zcml in my module and how to include securitypolicy.zcml from there | 19:42 |
| Theuni | dunno, i saw people touching stuff | 19:42 |
| Theuni | what's the query you run for finding the 15 bugs? | 19:43 |
| philiKON | what's up with http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/556 now? is anyone taking it? | 19:43 |
| philiKON | Theuni, select critical | 19:43 |
| philiKON | from the categories | 19:43 |
| Theuni | that's all issues | 19:44 |
| Theuni | no bugs | 19:44 |
| Theuni | although quite a few might be misclassified | 19:44 |
| * mgedmin is for condition="not: have devmode" for symmetry with TALES not: | 19:45 | |
| Theuni | mgedmin: me too, partially, but i also agree on keeping zcml much more simple | 19:45 |
| philiKON | mgedmin, that would change the whole "verb object" philosophy | 19:45 |
| mgedmin | if "lost devmode"? | 19:45 |
| mgedmin | "misplaced devmode"? | 19:45 |
| philiKON | donthave devmode | 19:45 |
| philiKON | and | 19:45 |
| philiKON | notinstalled Products.Five | 19:45 |
| philiKON | i think adding those two verbs wouldn't be that big'a deal | 19:46 |
| philiKON | even in 3.3... | 19:46 |
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| Theuni | i think we could ask for it on the dev-list but i really don't feel like adding those verbs in 3.3. | 19:47 |
| philiKON | Theuni, any particular reason why you have like "enabled.zcml" and "disabled.zcml" files? | 19:47 |
| Theuni | we need to get it out of the door. soon. | 19:47 |
| Theuni | philiKON: actually i wondered about that initially if i could use a generic xml container element to do that in one file. | 19:48 |
| philiKON | <configure> | 19:49 |
| Theuni | hmm. so i can nest configure within a file ... didn't try that. | 19:49 |
| philiKON | you can nest as many <configure>s as you want | 19:49 |
| Theuni | good to know | 19:49 |
| Theuni | then that should be refactored. i agree. | 19:49 |
| * Theuni refactors | 19:49 | |
| * philiKON looks at Theuni's ftest | 19:50 | |
| philiKON | btw, here's a reason why we should have a 'donthave' in zope 3.3: | 19:51 |
| philiKON | what if somebody enables both devmode and nodevmode featuers? | 19:51 |
| Theuni | it gives a conflict error when starting | 19:51 |
| philiKON | right | 19:51 |
| Theuni | i'm perfectly aware of that | 19:51 |
| Theuni | that's why it's called a workaround | 19:51 |
| * philiKON grumbles | 19:52 | |
| philiKON | J1m, ayt? | 19:52 |
| Theuni | nope, i think he'll be back in 10-15 minutes | 19:53 |
| philiKON | ok | 19:53 |
| philiKON | Theuni, btw, as for bug vs. issue in the tracker. everything that's there is an issue to me that needs to be resolved eventually (read: for 3.3 final) | 19:54 |
| philiKON | otherwise we can just as well a) defer it or b) give it a different status | 19:55 |
| Theuni | then it should be set to priority 3.3 | 19:55 |
| philiKON | what's critical then? | 19:55 |
| philiKON | "Oh, it's fairly serious, but we don't really wanna go into it"??? | 19:55 |
| philiKON | "Yeah, I looked at it this last bugday and didn't really wanna fix it"??? | 19:55 |
| Theuni | Well. There are issues and bugs. And there might be critical things that we decide to postpone, e.g. for 3.3.1 or whatever | 19:55 |
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| Theuni | importance is not necessarily correlating with the urgency | 19:56 |
| Theuni | it might be important (critical) but we might have time to catch up with it | 19:56 |
| philiKON | hmm. i don't get this, but perhaps i don't have to | 19:57 |
| philiKON | Theuni, so, what about http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/556 now? | 19:57 |
| philiKON | shall i take it? | 19:58 |
| Theuni | i didn't touch it. i don't have time for any more bugs right now, take it if you want. | 19:58 |
| philiKON | k | 19:58 |
| philiKON | actually, perhaps you're right about the urgency :) | 19:58 |
| philiKON | perhaps i should see what's really stopping a 3.3 release | 19:59 |
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| Theuni | :) | 19:59 |
| philiKON | i think 507 should be addressed, some way or another. looks like srichter and I are not 100% satisfied yet | 19:59 |
| philiKON | let's see what J1m has to say | 19:59 |
| Theuni | i'm willing to take care for the stuff that needs to be done on 507 | 19:59 |
| Theuni | it's also still assigned to me | 19:59 |
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| philiKON | ok | 20:00 |
| srichter | cool, I am glad you are going back on 507 | 20:00 |
| Theuni | i've started the refactoring of the zcml but somethings biting me there | 20:00 |
| philiKON | id' be willing to help with the donthave and notinstalled verbs | 20:00 |
| philiKON | like what? | 20:00 |
| Theuni | some registrations don't get in as before. looking into that later. need to do other stuff now. | 20:00 |
| philiKON | k | 20:00 |
| philiKON | Theuni, when do you think you'll have time to look at this again? | 20:01 |
| philiKON | i want to make a beta2 tonight | 20:01 |
| philiKON | and i think 507 needs to be addressed somehow | 20:01 |
| philiKON | (well it sorta is already, but it'd be nice if done properly, whatever that means) | 20:02 |
| Theuni | hmm. dunno. tonight for me, i guess. | 20:05 |
| philiKON | same here | 20:06 |
| philiKON | i'll be online | 20:06 |
| philiKON | just ping me | 20:06 |
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| philiKON | J1m, so, zope.conf.in now turns off devmode by default | 20:35 |
| J1m | k | 20:36 |
| philiKON | well, actually, if nothing is specified in zope.conf, devmode is off | 20:36 |
| philiKON | it used to be on | 20:36 |
| philiKON | users who upgrade to the new release we'll be making will find their apidoc etc. turned off | 20:36 |
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| philiKON | that's why theuni has created a page that will appear at ++apidoc++ when devmode is turned off | 20:37 |
| philiKON | telling them to turn devmode back on, explicitly | 20:37 |
| J1m | cool | 20:37 |
| philiKON | yeah | 20:37 |
| philiKON | for that, he needed to create a "nodevmode" feature | 20:37 |
| J1m | That's nice | 20:37 |
| philiKON | becaus ethere's currently no way to say: | 20:37 |
| philiKON | zcml:condition="not have devmode" | 20:37 |
| philiKON | or something | 20:37 |
| philiKON | i don't think it's nice having two features, devmode and nodevmode | 20:38 |
| philiKON | i think it should be one feature and the verb should be have or donthave | 20:38 |
| philiKON | verb being the verb in zcml:condition | 20:38 |
| philiKON | on a related note, i've had the use case of needing a negated "installed" verb | 20:38 |
| philiKON | zcml:condition="notinstalled Products.Five" | 20:39 |
| philiKON | question is, should we add those negated verbs to 3.3, or keep the workaround of two features? | 20:39 |
| J1m | are we talking about zope.conf? or site.zcml? | 20:40 |
| philiKON | adding them would be a feature, i guess | 20:40 |
| J1m | oh never mind | 20:40 |
| philiKON | we're talkign about adding them to zope.configuration | 20:40 |
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| J1m | I guess I have a slight preference for notdevmode | 20:41 |
| benji | I guess you guys missed my morning show; I though we'd decided to do zcml:condition="not-have foo". | 20:41 |
| J1m | I don't feel strongly about it. | 20:41 |
| J1m | I've for whatever has the least impact. | 20:41 |
| philiKON | benji, oh, i must indeed have missed that | 20:41 |
| philiKON | impact is hard to measure. i think it's just hard to document devmode vs. nodevmode, for example | 20:42 |
| philiKON | everyone will think: whyd idn't they go for a negated verb? | 20:42 |
| J1m | I'll defer | 20:43 |
| benji | we also decided on a synonym: zcml:condition="ain't-got foo" | 20:43 |
| philiKON | cool | 20:43 |
| philiKON | synonym for installed would be in-da-house? | 20:43 |
| philiKON | J1m, ok :) | 20:44 |
| benji | I was going more for hillbilly, not gangsta | 20:44 |
| philiKON | ah | 20:44 |
| benji | I know they're hard to tell apart. | 20:44 |
| philiKON | it's all yanks to us | 20:44 |
| * philiKON hides | 20:44 | |
| philiKON | so, not-have and not-installed? | 20:44 |
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| benji | +1 | 20:45 |
| philiKON | Theuni, ? | 20:45 |
| Theuni | what about the "?" | 20:47 |
| philiKON | asking you for a vote | 20:47 |
| faassen | I'm out of here for the night. | 20:50 |
| faassen | sorry I couldn't actually resolve more bugs. :( | 20:50 |
| faassen | it also was sort of like "Infrae bug day here", like too often. :) | 20:51 |
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| Theuni | philiKON: +1 then | 21:01 |
| philiKON | k | 21:01 |
| philiKON | Theuni, i do the verbs, you do the rest? | 21:01 |
| Theuni | ack | 21:03 |
| philiKON | is that TCP for acknowledged? | 21:03 |
| Theuni | ack fin | 21:04 |
| Theuni | (actually that would be FIN and you say FINACK) | 21:04 |
| philiKON | sorry, my TCP is horrible... ;) | 21:04 |
| Theuni | hihi | 21:05 |
| benji | so from now on, instead of saying ping Theuni, I'll say SYN Theuni and wait for the SYN/ACK | 21:08 |
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| Theuni | and i'll never say that and when you try more thann 4000 times your stack will overflow and you can't talk anymore to other people. | 21:10 |
| philiKON | sounds like a good protocol | 21:10 |
| Theuni | that's what the world relies on | 21:10 |
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| philiKON | Theuni, 3.3 branch now has not-have and not-installed | 21:39 |
| Theuni | hooray | 21:40 |
| Theuni | thanks | 21:40 |
| philiKON | and now trunk does too | 21:40 |
| srichter | yi[ee | 21:40 |
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