IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2006-08-25

benjithe knights that say "ziii!"00:00
benjized's good too (although dead)00:00
* philiKON still likes our.traverser00:00
philiKONit's a bit cocky00:01
philiKONbut hey, we're zope00:01
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whitphiliKON: what is the zope tlns being reserved for again?00:06
philiKONwell, humm... zope?00:06
whitwhy do we really need more namespace packages?00:06
whitat all?00:06
philiKONwell, zope-the-software?00:06
philiKONwhatever that is00:06
philiKONi guess 'zope' is for zope foundation projects00:06
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philiKONi don't think we want to open 'zope' for eveyrone00:07
* whit thinks dividing namespace over organizational boundaries is retarded00:07
whitbut that's just me00:07
philiKONsoon you'll see zope.fronaz and zope.mycooltoy00:07
benjiplus it really is good to have a few namespaces, if were created today it'd probably be zope.locking, then zc.locking is differentiated from it00:07
philiKONbenji, there's zope.locking ;)00:07
philiKONbut yeah, it's good to have boundaries00:08
benjigood, I'm vindicated :)00:08
whitI understand headroom00:08
whitI just prefer what I have to type into my code to have something to do with what I am coding00:08
benjiwhit: plus that is part of the idea of having a "community" package, everyone can use it00:08
philiKONyeah. i think stuff in the 'zope' namespace sorta has a brand thing00:09
philiKONthis is part of Zope00:09
philiKON(again,n whatever that means)00:09
philiKONi guess, it'll mean something like: this is blessed by zope00:09
whitbut nothing stop anyone from creating eggs that use that namespace00:09
mgedminI find it kinda suboptimal that you have and for many values of foo00:09
philiKONthis is recommended by zope00:09
benjithere's also the issue of top-level names colliding: if I wanted to do a mysql integration with zope, I can't just name it "mysql", but zorg.mysql would seem logical00:09
philiKONplus, lovely.tag and zc.tag migtht be very dfiferent00:10
whitnot mysql.zope?00:10
whitthat's not really the pan I'm beating on00:10
whitmy point is that zope means something: lovely, z3c, zc, etc...not so much00:11
benjimgedmin: I feel like it'd be a little presumptuous for us to start generating a bunch of zope.* packages, that's part of the reason we use zc.*00:11
whitthey tell me nil about the code in them00:11
whitI realize this is a "the way the world is" kind of situation00:11
benjiit tells you that they're Zope-related00:11
whitsort of00:11
benjilovely is a company name, z3c are zope-related, but otherwise "homeless", zc packages are by ZC00:12
* mgedmin didn't know lovely was a company name00:13
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* whit somewhat prefers what infrae did00:14
whithurry, granted doesn't mean much, but is is a unifying identifier for the packages contained with in00:14
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whithaving tribally named zope related namespaces doesn't do much except promote confusion once people start making things with the same names00:16
* whit sees this all the time in the PloneCMFATSimpleNG world00:16
srichterright, I think namespaces are good for trying different approaches of the same thing00:17
philiKONmgedmin, lovely system is behind lovely00:17
philiKONlovely systems even00:17
srichterif something gets blessed by Zope developers (hopefully soon z3c.traverser), then it can move to the zope namespace00:17
philiKONi think we'll have to find a way on how things get blessed00:17
srichterwhit: but they reflect reality00:17
philiKONi guess these are some of the thins that the ZMO can do00:18 guys turns me crazy00:18
whitsrichter: I'm mainly playing devils advocate00:18
philiKONprojekt01, what's up, roger00:18
srichterwhit: Until code leaves an internal repository we do not know what the other party is doing00:18
srichtera namespace gives us the oppurtunity to say: here is how we solved the problem00:18
whitthat makes sense.00:19
whitsee my point above about hurry.  same difference00:19
srichterand once we agree on a canonical way it can move to zope or a more generally accepted namespace00:19
philiKONin zope2, there are a lot of products called  MycorpDosomething00:19
projekt01...with such ideas you guys make the live harder then it is allready. I really think we should be a bit more pragmatic and be happy if after such a long time some pakages are comming public.00:20
philiKONi guess it'll no just be mycorp.dosomething00:20
philiKONi don't see a big difference between then and now00:20
whitthe idea of transitioning makes it more sensible.00:20
mgedminI like it00:20
philiKONmgedmin, it=?00:20
mgedminthe idea that when a package reaches maturity, it gets renamed from mycopr.blargh to zope.blargh00:21
* J1m thinks moving things from one namespace to another is a waste of time.00:21
whitI don't really care, it's just my observation on the organic proliferation of namespaces in the zope community et al00:21
philiKONi agree with J1m00:21
mgedminon second thought, renaming things is a hassle00:21
J1mI'd rather see people have good names for things withn a namespace.00:21
philiKONthings sometimes get renamed...00:21
J1mand pick some namespace that's iunique and not worry much about the namespace.00:21
philiKONor when is Aequeduct 3.3 getting released?00:21
whitI like to see namespaces mean something to the programmer00:21
* srichter notes that the initiators and current contributors of z3c all work on the same project (at least partially); we meet every couple of weeks in face time and discuss where we want to go00:22
J1mwhit, I don't agree00:22
srichterbtw, we have not placed anything into z3c that we was not applicable to at least 2 of our projects00:22
J1mThe namespace simply provides a way to make things unique so that the names within the namespace can be meaningful.00:22
philiKONsrichter, that's cool. what has that got to do with namespaces?00:23
J1mzc doesn't mean anything. That's OK.00:23
J1mlovely doesn't mean anything either.00:23
philiKONwell, those names dont' hapepn for no reason00:23
srichterecept that it is lovely :-)00:23
J1mHopefully, withn the zc namespace, we'll pick good names for things.00:23
whitok...I agree with you more or less.00:24
J1mI'd rather people think of zc.buildout as just "buildout".00:24
J1mthe prefix is just book keeping.00:24
whitMy point was that making names associated with  group outside of the purpose of the code within promotes confusion00:24
whitit's common practice and not a big deal00:24
philiKONi think we're the only ones actually using namespace packages this way00:25
* whit chuckles00:25
* mgedmin realises that he doesn't really have an option, as long as we don't start using reversed domain names00:25
philiKONi think that's what might be appalling to some00:25
philiKONmgedmin, from org.zope.formlib import Form00:25
J1mI don't know what "group outside of the purpose of the code within" means. (But I jost joined this conversation)00:25
srichterJ1m: I agree with you, except if sub-names collid, like prefix.widget; but I think this is okay and exactely the point; at some point each group will have enough expereince in usage and development that we can create one comprehensive widget package00:26
whitI think it the natural outgrowth of a vibrant community effort00:26
J1mHopefully, each namespace belongs to a group that is coordinating names.00:26
srichterand until now the z3c group has been communicating alot on coordinating names and their content00:27
philiKONso, 'zope' belongs to who?00:27
whitj1m: my point about used the example of hurry.  The namespace refers to nothing but the code contained within.00:27
J1mI'm not opposed to having shared namespaces and migrating things to them, but I've got more urgent things to do. :)00:28
philiKONand who gets to avoid really really confusing names like zope.generic?00:28
srichterphiliKON: Zope community/developers to mark particularly well-developed packages; being demoted from zope happens often00:28
philiKONhmm. dunno. haven't seen it yet00:28
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philiKONzope.generic certainly is a weird package name (apart from its being a weird package)00:28
J1mwhit, I thought hurry was an umbrella for a number of projects.00:29
J1mBut, for example, ZODB isn't a namespace in the sense we're talking about.00:29
J1mphiliKON: agreed00:29
srichterzope.generic is probably located incorectly; I misadviced Dominik on that00:30
whitJ1m: all those projects I believe belong to a single effort.00:31
philiKONsrichter, it's name is unfortunate. both the 'zope' bit and the 'generic' bit. (what's generic about it?)00:32
srichterwhit: no, I think this is the misconception; lovely.* definitely belongs to the large lovely project we are working on; it is not part of the Zope development community effort00:32
philiKONsrichter, looking inside zope.generic, it looks like it's just a bag for other packages00:32
philiKONsrichter, i thought were getting rid of bags...00:32
philiKONsrichter, anyways, i commented all that on the lists a while ago00:32
philiKONsrichter, along with my complaints regarding z3c's dir layout00:32
whitsrichter: right...and your packages sort of go together00:32
srichterzope.generic follows a pretty drastic deisgn idea and all the sub-packages really follow that; I am ok with that bagging00:33
philiKONthen there should be at least a README.txt explaining exactly that00:33
whitthat works with what I'm saying.  as does having z3c be a staging ground for things to move into zope00:33
srichterphiliKON: look, we develop z3c while we are doing customer projects; sometimes things have to go fast; when we have time we come back and fix it; it is really a practical thing00:34
philiKONsrichter, wasn't it you who told jeff shell that you really should take time to make things public?00:34
philiKONif you make'em public, let's play by the rules00:34
philiKONi know, it's just a stupid dir layout00:34
philiKONbut things start there00:34
srichterwe take the time to make them public00:35
philiKON(all that only applies for making public in, of course)00:35
srichterbut some things are not necessary until a later stage00:35
srichtersuch as certain files for releases00:35
philiKONperhaps. but is a public place00:35
philiKONlots of people. including people from outside the community, looka t it00:36
* benji realizes that his uncontrollable ability to start flame wars has struck again.00:36
philiKONmsising README.txt are just bad marketing00:36
philiKONdang, i've sad the m word00:36
* whit pass benji the matches00:36
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srichterif I was involved in any package release, the package definitely has a README.txt for unit testing00:37
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philiKONa 2 liner w/ "This is plumbing.toilet. It's used for plumbing toilets through the walls" would be enough00:38
philiKON(for now)00:38
philiKON(when you do things quickly, as you said)00:38
philiKONif you don't want to do that, there's always the Sandbox00:38
philiKONat least as far as i understood it, the Sandbox was for when you don't want to play by the rules, for now00:39
srichterbut why? Anyone who wants to use repository packages looks for
benjifrom plumbing.toilet import flush, jiggle_handle, plunge00:39
philiKONsrichter, where's zope.generic's ERADME.txt?00:39
whitimport plumbing.toilet.Plunger00:40
srichterI didn't even realize that most packages have a
whitsrichter: off topic, is your adapter presentation online anywhere?00:40
srichterI have not been involved in zope.generic releasing, I personally don't even get it, but that does not mean other people should not look at it00:40
philiKONoh boy, what have I startd with the plumbing.toilet thing00:40
benjime either, srichter; I don't think any of the zc.* ones do00:41
srichterI Think Dominik would be very responsive to the README request; I know for sure he does not read zope3-dev regularly00:41
whitI really would like to get..... projekt01 can you get dominik to make a readme for generic?00:41
philiKONsrichter, he was actually CCed00:41
whitget it00:41
philiKONsrichter, i specifically remember that00:41
srichterok, so ask him again00:42
philiKONand he took part in the discussion00:42
srichterbut it's not the worst thing that can happen00:42
philiKONwill do. when i see him :)00:42
srichterhe writes unit tests and you can get it from there00:42
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srichterbtw, the repository is not a good place to start marketing00:43
philiKONbut people look at it00:43
srichterI think a ZSCP site would be, where such documentation requirements are made00:43
philiKONpeople like ian bicking do it to see wht zope has to offer00:43
philiKONand it makes sense00:43
philiKONsrichter, i agree.00:43
srichter(yeah, yeah, I have to finish it; I'll start that train again when I am back in the US)00:43
philiKONheck, even a cheeseshop category would be better than anything00:43
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* philiKON wants the ferraribook pro
J1mcheeseshopcatagories seem pretty pointless atm00:52
philiKONi dunno. browsing and finding 'Zope' would be nice00:55
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philiKON*yawn* g'night00:56
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philiKONwe are the zorg. resistance is futile13:52
philiKONadaption is necessary13:52
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philiKONfaassen, good post on that django blog14:25
philiKONfaassen, i also replied14:25
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mgedminZope Zoftware Zystems Consortium :)14:57
faassenanyway it's just that Stephan can generate new namespace packages faster than many of us can blink. :)15:04
philiKONlol, well said15:05
faassenphiliKON: thanks for the kudos points on my blog, by the way.15:05
faassenI had that blog posting in my drafts for a long time, I figured what the heck, let's post it now.15:06
faassenI was waiting for some release work on OAICore and such, I think, but what the heck. :)15:06
faassenor perhaps we already did that release by now. I don't know. :)15:06
philiKONman, phillip eby wrote such a great foreword for my 2nd ed.15:06
faassenoh, cool!15:06
philiKONit says all the points about zope that i could now use in this django hype discussion15:07
faassenI'm going to give a keynote at the DZUG thing.15:07
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philiKONfaassen, you still have access, i recommend you'd read it :)15:07
faassenso I've been pondering what to do the keynote about.15:07
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philiKONhey nathany15:10
philiKONnathany, going to be at ploneconf?15:10
nathanyphiliKON: wasn't planning on it -- been a bit overwhelmed with travel lately... when/where is it15:12
philiKONend of october, seattle15:12
philiKONyeah, same here actually, but i decided to go anyways after my tutorial got accepted15:12
nathanyah, cool15:12
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nathanyyeah, i doubt it... been away about every other week this summer, so ready to take a break :)15:13
philiKONtoo bad. but there'll be other opportunities :)15:17
nathanyyeah... i *would* like to go to Seattle, so maybe I should look @ the program :)15:18
philiKONthe program is *awesome*(15:19
nathanywell it must be if you're in it ;)15:19
philiKONmy talk is sort of niche-y this time15:20
philiKONi've left the general "Zope 3 for all!" battlefield for others ;)15:20
nathanywow, that does look good15:20
philiKONi've collected my favourites (
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tiredbonesphilikon, www,z3lab,org does not seem to be a good url.16:10
benjiI assume you didn't type it with commas (as above), tiredbones16:12
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tiredbonesbenji, ya very slow. thanks16:13
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faassenJ1m: question about zc.buildout17:33
faassenJ1m: if you're around17:34
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faassenJ1m: okay, I am looking at the zc.sharing sample buildout17:37
faassenJ1m: and I'm trying to understand how you include zc.sharing itself in it17:37
faassenJ1m: do you make an egg of it first?17:37
J1mYes, by virtue of it being a develop egg, listed in the develop option.17:38
faassenhm, develop option17:38
faassenso 'develop = .'17:39
J1mIt is also listed as am ehh in the instance section17:39
J1mhave you read buildout.txt?17:40
faassenI will read it more carefully.17:40
faassenI read bits and pieces.17:40
faassenbut this looks like the bit I was missing.17:41
J1mthe develop section, if present, has a list of one or more setup scripts or directories containing setupscripts.17:41
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faassenI'm vaguely considering something like 'buildout for idiots' :)17:41
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J1mEach of them us used to create a develop egg.17:41
faassenthat makes sense to me now, I just missed that bit.17:41
faassenI mean, I'm vaguely considering writing something like buildout for idiots :)17:41
faassenit's not that hard, so it could be a short document, hopefully.17:41
J1mIt might just work through some example buildouts.17:42
faassenI'd missed the significant of the 'develop = .'17:42
faassenthe zc.sharing recipe is almost what one'd need for a zope 3 buildout though.17:42
faassenI'm trying to make a documentlibrary buildout.17:42
J1mBTW, I think that provides an example of a very simple buildout.17:43
J1mI think this will be fairly prototypical of a case of working on a Python package and wanting a test runner and for all of it's dependencies to be fetched.17:44
faassenyes, that's a nice idea.17:44
faassenoh, by the way, to launch bootstrap I needed setuptools installed, is that correct?17:44
faassenI mean, I did have a setuptools installed, just not the newest version, so I had to update it.17:44
J1mno, just a sec17:44
faassenperhaps it got tricked as I had a too old version of setuptools installed17:45
faassenso it thought oh, setuptools, let's use that instead of getting our own. I don' know.17:45
faassenit did end up getting an egg too.17:45 will download setuptools for you.17:46
J1mRight, if setuptools is installed, it will use that.17:46
J1mWhich might not be so good.17:46 actually uses
J1mNote that if you have an existing buildout, you can use it to create a new one. :)17:47
faassenit wasn't a big showstopper, the error message was clear.17:48
J1msomeotherbuildout/bin/buildout bootstrap17:48
faassenso it was just an easy_install -U setuptools17:48
faassenjust wanted to mention it.17:48
J1mbuild a buildout in the current dir.17:48
faassenwhat's the policy about running bin/buildout multiple times?17:48
J1mIt is encouraged. :)17:49
faassenokay. I'm just rerunning it after changing the config.17:49
faassenand it appears to be hanging.17:49
J1mIt isn't speedy17:49
J1mGive it time.17:49
faassenokay. :)17:49
J1mThe network checks can take a while.17:50
faassenperhaps I should try the verbose option.17:50
J1mI have plans to speed this up quite a bit.17:50
faassenrestarting it, I'm impatient so did a ctl-C17:50
J1mYup, then you can see what' it's doing.17:50
faassenanyway, so far it's pretty cool.17:50
faassenthis should change the nature of zope 3 development quite a bit.17:50
faassenand beyond that.17:50
J1mAlso, if you know you won't need to download anything, you can use buildout:ofline=true17:51
faassenthat buildout:foo syntax.17:51
J1mon the command line and it will skip the checks for new versions.17:51
J1mThis makes it go much faster.17:51
J1mYes, what about it?17:51
faassenso that's a commandline version of saying 'offline=true' in the [buildout] section of the cfg file?17:51
J1mThis is documented in buildout.txt :)17:52
faassenI know.17:52
faassenbut that's a loooong document.17:52
faassenand I'm a lazy programmer. :)17:52
faassenthere it is, command-line usage.17:52
faassenanyway, with that recent zc.* open sourcing of yours, zope 3 is starting to really look like a pool of wonderful little components you can glue together. :)17:55
faassenthere's just so much cool stuff one can combine together by now.17:56
faassenI know that was the goal all along. :)17:56
rockyi've already begun brainstorming on the plone layer required to make zc.comments work in plone )17:56
faassenit's just fun to realize the goal is being reached.17:56
faassenyeah, and I helped giving zope 3 fire to the plonies.17:56
faassensee what I've done!17:56
* faassen points at rocky17:56
whitright...nothing is as cool as watching something hit the tipping point17:57
faassenwe need a cool website.17:57
faassenanyway, I'm working on it.17:57
faassenyou guys need to help me.17:57
faassenI mean whit and rocky17:57
faassenof course.17:57
* rocky commits to criticizing faassen on everything he does with the cool website as his contribution :)17:57
faassenoh, right, I hear you volunteer. silence is volunteering.17:58
faassenrocky: I get that for free, I don't need people to volunteer for that. :)17:58
* whit chuckles17:58
rockyfaassen: what kind of help you need?17:59
faassenrocky: well, join zope-web17:59
faassenrocky: then, say, help us put togethre the foundation website as a sample case.17:59
faassenrocky: then as a next stage, we'll tackle's homepage and such.17:59
rockyzope-web is a mailing list?\18:00
faassenrocky: I mostly need people who can write a bit.18:00
faassenrocky: yup, zope-web@zope.org18:00
rockyi guess i can add one more... 17 subscribed mailing isn't enough anyhow18:00
faassenin particular read this:18:00
faassenand this18:01
faassenespecially the latter has a dramatic lack of anyone responding. :)18:01
philiKONfaassen, re: pool of wonderful little coponents: i blogged about this. I realized that nowadays there are quite a bit of solutions for z3 out there...18:01
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faassenanyway, concerning the buildout story..18:01
faassenphiliKON: yeah, I think I read that.18:02
faassenphiliKON: I did read that. :)18:02
philiKONi feel that we're slowly getting back to where zope 2 was a few years ago ;)18:02
faassenanyway, somehow it's still not making my documentlibrary part of the zope.18:02
faassenno, zope 2 never had this.18:02
philiKONit had/has lots of add on "products"18:02
faassenzope 2 had a lot of bigger course grained components with ZMI UIs.18:02
faassenthat slowly tended to drift apart.18:03
philiKONwell... true. the scope is perhaps different18:03
philiKONwe're really creating libraries, not products18:03
faassenI mean, that's pretty good too, I mean, some pretty powerful ones.18:03
philiKONstill. in zope 2, most of the things you wanted to do you could be sure there were already a few solutions out there18:03
philiKONeven if you didn't end up taking one of them, you could use them for inspiration18:03
philiKONand you'd at least know it's possible18:03
rockythe smallest component available to a plone developer before zope3 was generally a content type ... the thing is, content types in a cmf/plone sense were never reusable (really), everytime you wanted to do something with a content type you ended up extending an existing one to introduce a new one18:07
benjiyep, focused, well designed libraries are good; even if your main goal is to build something more "product" like on top18:08
benjisomething else we need to keep in mind is how a package might be useful to people outside of the Zope community (like the just checked-in zope.etree package)18:09
benjiwhy isn't that named (z3c|zorg).etree, anyway?18:10
faassenbenji: who cares, it's free for all anyway for namespaces packages? :)18:16
faassencool, it does something with elementtree. :)18:16
benjiI do feel, like philiKON, that the zope namespace is a little special though18:16
faassenoh, I agree, I was just being facetious :)18:17
benjiright, it seems like the right model for something like that is to make it generally useful first, then have a zope-specific subpackage (but I haven't looked closely at it yet(18:17
* benji wonders if he'll exceed his monthly flamewar quota by suggesting on the list that zope.etree should be in a different namespace18:18
philiKONwhat's zope.etree?18:18
faassenphiliKON: it's for people who don't want to use lxml by default. :)18:19
philiKONah, it's a thing factored out of zope.webdav, i presume18:19
faassenanyway, I'm somewhat wondering why it just doesn't rely on cElementTree.18:20
faassenit mentions it can use plain ElementTree, and lxml.18:20
faassenbut cElementTree is the obvious choice if you just want what's in ElementTree + fast.18:20
faassenlxml is what you want in ElementTree + fast + lots of features.18:21
philiKONesp. lots of features18:21
faassenanyway, so the main reason to start using lxml is features.18:22
faassenif you just want performance cElementTree is dandy.18:22
faassenso I'm a bit curious what the motivation behind zope.etree is.18:23
faassenI shouldn't as it allows zope to use lxml, but only in the common subset situation with ElementTree, where it's really not that useful.18:23
faassenI guess I'll ask on the mailing list.18:23
faassenanyway, peculiar.18:32
faassenI feel weird telling someone to go use cElementTree instead. :)18:32
* benji wants lots of features (XPath especially)18:45
rockyin my mind it's silly that zope(2|3) ships without *any* xpath/xslt support18:46
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benjirocky: I kind of agree, but I have high hopes that the eggification of 3.4 and the further eggification of other packages will make adding xpath/xslt to a project trivial (so we can avoid packaging one with Zope)18:52
faassenbenji: right, it's just libxml2 remains a requirement.18:52
faassenbenji: in case of lxml, which of course is the implementation of choice. :)18:52
faassenbenji: I was wondering just now whether one can write a buildout recipe to install a C library. :)18:52
faassenbenji: one that says gimmie libxml 2.5245.6618:53
benjifaassen: that's why we have a buildout recipe to create libxml2, so it's just as easy to install as a lxml18:53
faassenbenji: oh, you hae one already18:53
faassenbenji: you sneaky people18:53
benjifor the old-new-buildout (the one that preceeded Jim's zc.buildout)18:54
faassenbenji: ah, okay.18:54
faassenwell, if we have one for the new new buildout.18:54
benjibut it'll be easy enough to translate to a new-new-style buildout recipe18:54
benjiyeah, having a recipe really takes the claws out of deploying hairy C libs18:55
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philiKONfaassen, there's a cmmi recipe19:08
philiKONfaassen, configure make make install19:08
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* benji suspects philiKON has never tried to build libxml2, after suggesting that "just"19:31
benji... configure/make/make install will work19:31
philiKONi actually have built libxml2, a while ago, though19:32
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* mgedmin wants philiKON's script, but is not responding...20:10
philiKONthis thing is a life saver :)20:12
mgedminoh yes20:14
MJmgedmin: your bug 697 reminded me of something I needed to report for ZPT in Zope2..20:24
MJBut I am not sure if it still occurs20:24
MJAn error in a macro, and an on-error on a template using the macro20:24
MJwill bust the macro stack, causing later macros to fail to render20:25
MJso <div tal:on-error="oops" metal:use-macro="here/template/macros/macroname"/>20:25
MJand here/template causes an error.20:25
MJHaven't had time to file a report and/or see if it still occurs in the Z3 tal engine.20:26
MJphiliKON: ezmerge is a great lil' script20:26
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mgedminMJ: what a familiar bug20:37
mgedminI just saw fred drake's checkin fixing it in zope 320:37
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MJmgedmin: Heh :)20:45
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MJThat bug bit me a while ago on a Plone project..20:45
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WebMavenIs something wrong with
*** RaFromBRC has quit IRC21:54
mgedminI think so, I couldn't connect to it a bit earlier21:55
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WebMavenDoes z3lab have it's own IRC channel?22:03
WebMavenOr is this one it?22:03
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whituxmaybe try the cps channel?22:05
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WebMavenlooks like it's back up.22:16
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benjiordered your mac pro yet, zbir? :)23:18
zbirheh. I wish.23:18
zbirJust making do with my MacBook Pro and my MacBook on either side of my big ass Dell monitor.23:18
benjiheh :)23:19
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RealityChecki have a question about zope3's sql methods and zpt23:22
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floxwher i find the tales doc?23:48
floxi do not understandthis expresssion: ${context/zope:title_or_name}23:49
philiKONflox, do you know how i found this?23:49
philiKONflox, googling for "tales specification"23:49
philiKONflox,  what do you not understand?23:49
philiKONflox, i'm telling you this because you could've googled as well :)23:49
floxu're right... but i hav a loss of confidence on googling zope things...23:50
philiKONyou can always try first, though23:50
floxdefinitely, u're right23:51
floxphiliKON: what is the 'zope:title_or_name' thing, in the expression above?23:53
philiKONzope: is a namespace adapter23:53
philiKONcontext doesn't have a title_or_name attribute23:53
philiKONso, we adapt it23:53
floxi go to see that23:54
floxi assume that 'title_or_id' is somewhere in zope standard package?23:54
philiKONlook at title_or_name is defined there23:55
philiKONtitle_or_id does not exist23:55
floxoh, yes... i've read the page about "name, id and key" some day23:56
floxphiliKON: thanks for the 'talesapi' thing. exactly what i was looking for.23:58
floxphiliKON, i hv a question about the zope.formlib and zope.contentprovider thing.23:59
floxi need to display a search module somewhere on my web page23:59
floxi think of a "formlib to do that23:59

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