| philiKON | hah | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| mgedmin | ziii! | 00:00 |
| philiKON | ziii.traverser | 00:00 |
| benji | the knights that say "ziii!" | 00:00 |
| philiKON | zed.traverser | 00:00 |
| benji | zed's good too (although dead) | 00:00 |
| * philiKON still likes our.traverser | 00:00 | |
| philiKON | it's a bit cocky | 00:01 |
| philiKON | but hey, we're zope | 00:01 |
| philiKON | were.zope.traverser | 00:01 |
| *** alga has joined #zope3-dev | 00:05 | |
| whit | philiKON: what is the zope tlns being reserved for again? | 00:06 |
| philiKON | well, humm... zope? | 00:06 |
| whit | why do we really need more namespace packages? | 00:06 |
| whit | at all? | 00:06 |
| philiKON | well, zope-the-software? | 00:06 |
| philiKON | whatever that is | 00:06 |
| whit | exactly | 00:06 |
| philiKON | i guess 'zope' is for zope foundation projects | 00:06 |
| *** efrerich has joined #zope3-dev | 00:07 | |
| benji | right | 00:07 |
| philiKON | i don't think we want to open 'zope' for eveyrone | 00:07 |
| * whit thinks dividing namespace over organizational boundaries is retarded | 00:07 | |
| whit | but that's just me | 00:07 |
| philiKON | soon you'll see zope.fronaz and zope.mycooltoy | 00:07 |
| benji | plus it really is good to have a few namespaces, if zope.app.locking were created today it'd probably be zope.locking, then zc.locking is differentiated from it | 00:07 |
| philiKON | benji, there's zope.locking ;) | 00:07 |
| philiKON | but yeah, it's good to have boundaries | 00:08 |
| benji | good, I'm vindicated :) | 00:08 |
| whit | I understand headroom | 00:08 |
| whit | I just prefer what I have to type into my code to have something to do with what I am coding | 00:08 |
| benji | whit: plus that is part of the idea of having a "community" package, everyone can use it | 00:08 |
| philiKON | yeah. i think stuff in the 'zope' namespace sorta has a brand thing | 00:09 |
| philiKON | this is part of Zope | 00:09 |
| philiKON | (again,n whatever that means) | 00:09 |
| philiKON | i guess, it'll mean something like: this is blessed by zope | 00:09 |
| whit | but nothing stop anyone from creating eggs that use that namespace | 00:09 |
| mgedmin | I find it kinda suboptimal that you have zope.foo and zc.foo for many values of foo | 00:09 |
| philiKON | this is recommended by zope | 00:09 |
| benji | there's also the issue of top-level names colliding: if I wanted to do a mysql integration with zope, I can't just name it "mysql", but zorg.mysql would seem logical | 00:09 |
| philiKON | yup | 00:10 |
| philiKON | plus, lovely.tag and zc.tag migtht be very dfiferent | 00:10 |
| whit | not mysql.zope? | 00:10 |
| whit | that's not really the pan I'm beating on | 00:10 |
| whit | my point is that zope means something: lovely, z3c, zc, etc...not so much | 00:11 |
| benji | mgedmin: I feel like it'd be a little presumptuous for us to start generating a bunch of zope.* packages, that's part of the reason we use zc.* | 00:11 |
| whit | they tell me nil about the code in them | 00:11 |
| whit | I realize this is a "the way the world is" kind of situation | 00:11 |
| benji | it tells you that they're Zope-related | 00:11 |
| whit | sort of | 00:11 |
| benji | lovely is a company name, z3c are zope-related, but otherwise "homeless", zc packages are by ZC | 00:12 |
| * mgedmin didn't know lovely was a company name | 00:13 | |
| *** timte has quit IRC | 00:13 | |
| * whit somewhat prefers what infrae did | 00:14 | |
| whit | hurry, granted doesn't mean much, but is is a unifying identifier for the packages contained with in | 00:14 |
| *** projekt01 has joined #zope3-dev | 00:15 | |
| *** efrerich has quit IRC | 00:16 | |
| whit | having tribally named zope related namespaces doesn't do much except promote confusion once people start making things with the same names | 00:16 |
| * whit sees this all the time in the PloneCMFATSimpleNG world | 00:16 | |
| srichter | right, I think namespaces are good for trying different approaches of the same thing | 00:17 |
| philiKON | mgedmin, lovely system is behind lovely | 00:17 |
| philiKON | lovely systems even | 00:17 |
| srichter | if something gets blessed by Zope developers (hopefully soon z3c.traverser), then it can move to the zope namespace | 00:17 |
| philiKON | i think we'll have to find a way on how things get blessed | 00:17 |
| srichter | whit: but they reflect reality | 00:17 |
| philiKON | i guess these are some of the thins that the ZMO can do | 00:18 |
| projekt01 | ...you guys turns me crazy | 00:18 |
| whit | srichter: I'm mainly playing devils advocate | 00:18 |
| philiKON | projekt01, what's up, roger | 00:18 |
| projekt01 | hi | 00:18 |
| srichter | whit: Until code leaves an internal repository we do not know what the other party is doing | 00:18 |
| srichter | a namespace gives us the oppurtunity to say: here is how we solved the problem | 00:18 |
| whit | right | 00:19 |
| whit | that makes sense. | 00:19 |
| whit | see my point above about hurry. same difference | 00:19 |
| srichter | and once we agree on a canonical way it can move to zope or a more generally accepted namespace | 00:19 |
| philiKON | in zope2, there are a lot of products called MycorpDosomething | 00:19 |
| projekt01 | ...with such ideas you guys make the live harder then it is allready. I really think we should be a bit more pragmatic and be happy if after such a long time some pakages are comming public. | 00:20 |
| philiKON | i guess it'll no just be mycorp.dosomething | 00:20 |
| philiKON | i don't see a big difference between then and now | 00:20 |
| whit | the idea of transitioning makes it more sensible. | 00:20 |
| mgedmin | I like it | 00:20 |
| philiKON | mgedmin, it=? | 00:20 |
| mgedmin | the idea that when a package reaches maturity, it gets renamed from mycopr.blargh to zope.blargh | 00:21 |
| * J1m thinks moving things from one namespace to another is a waste of time. | 00:21 | |
| whit | I don't really care, it's just my observation on the organic proliferation of namespaces in the zope community et al | 00:21 |
| philiKON | i agree with J1m | 00:21 |
| philiKON | mostly | 00:21 |
| mgedmin | on second thought, renaming things is a hassle | 00:21 |
| J1m | I'd rather see people have good names for things withn a namespace. | 00:21 |
| philiKON | things sometimes get renamed... | 00:21 |
| J1m | and pick some namespace that's iunique and not worry much about the namespace. | 00:21 |
| philiKON | or when is Aequeduct 3.3 getting released? | 00:21 |
| whit | I like to see namespaces mean something to the programmer | 00:21 |
| philiKON | ;) | 00:21 |
| * srichter notes that the initiators and current contributors of z3c all work on the same project (at least partially); we meet every couple of weeks in face time and discuss where we want to go | 00:22 | |
| J1m | whit, I don't agree | 00:22 |
| whit | no? | 00:22 |
| J1m | no | 00:22 |
| srichter | btw, we have not placed anything into z3c that we was not applicable to at least 2 of our projects | 00:22 |
| J1m | The namespace simply provides a way to make things unique so that the names within the namespace can be meaningful. | 00:22 |
| philiKON | srichter, that's cool. what has that got to do with namespaces? | 00:23 |
| J1m | zc doesn't mean anything. That's OK. | 00:23 |
| J1m | lovely doesn't mean anything either. | 00:23 |
| philiKON | well, those names dont' hapepn for no reason | 00:23 |
| srichter | ecept that it is lovely :-) | 00:23 |
| J1m | Hopefully, withn the zc namespace, we'll pick good names for things. | 00:23 |
| whit | ok...I agree with you more or less. | 00:24 |
| J1m | I'd rather people think of zc.buildout as just "buildout". | 00:24 |
| J1m | the prefix is just book keeping. | 00:24 |
| J1m | imo | 00:24 |
| whit | My point was that making names associated with group outside of the purpose of the code within promotes confusion | 00:24 |
| whit | it's common practice and not a big deal | 00:24 |
| philiKON | i think we're the only ones actually using namespace packages this way | 00:25 |
| * whit chuckles | 00:25 | |
| * mgedmin realises that he doesn't really have an option, as long as we don't start using reversed domain names | 00:25 | |
| philiKON | i think that's what might be appalling to some | 00:25 |
| philiKON | mgedmin, from org.zope.formlib import Form | 00:25 |
| J1m | I don't know what "group outside of the purpose of the code within" means. (But I jost joined this conversation) | 00:25 |
| srichter | J1m: I agree with you, except if sub-names collid, like prefix.widget; but I think this is okay and exactely the point; at some point each group will have enough expereince in usage and development that we can create one comprehensive widget package | 00:26 |
| whit | I think it the natural outgrowth of a vibrant community effort | 00:26 |
| J1m | Hopefully, each namespace belongs to a group that is coordinating names. | 00:26 |
| srichter | right | 00:27 |
| srichter | and until now the z3c group has been communicating alot on coordinating names and their content | 00:27 |
| philiKON | so, 'zope' belongs to who? | 00:27 |
| whit | j1m: my point about used the example of hurry. The namespace refers to nothing but the code contained within. | 00:27 |
| J1m | I'm not opposed to having shared namespaces and migrating things to them, but I've got more urgent things to do. :) | 00:28 |
| philiKON | and who gets to avoid really really confusing names like zope.generic? | 00:28 |
| whit | s/about/above | 00:28 |
| srichter | philiKON: Zope community/developers to mark particularly well-developed packages; being demoted from zope happens often | 00:28 |
| philiKON | hmm. dunno. haven't seen it yet | 00:28 |
| *** mgedmin is now known as mg|away | 00:28 | |
| philiKON | zope.generic certainly is a weird package name (apart from its being a weird package) | 00:28 |
| J1m | whit, I thought hurry was an umbrella for a number of projects. | 00:29 |
| J1m | But, for example, ZODB isn't a namespace in the sense we're talking about. | 00:29 |
| J1m | philiKON: agreed | 00:29 |
| srichter | zope.generic is probably located incorectly; I misadviced Dominik on that | 00:30 |
| whit | J1m: all those projects I believe belong to a single effort. | 00:31 |
| philiKON | srichter, it's name is unfortunate. both the 'zope' bit and the 'generic' bit. (what's generic about it?) | 00:32 |
| srichter | whit: no, I think this is the misconception; lovely.* definitely belongs to the large lovely project we are working on; it is not part of the Zope development community effort | 00:32 |
| philiKON | srichter, looking inside zope.generic, it looks like it's just a bag for other packages | 00:32 |
| philiKON | srichter, i thought were getting rid of bags... | 00:32 |
| philiKON | srichter, anyways, i commented all that on the lists a while ago | 00:32 |
| philiKON | srichter, along with my complaints regarding z3c's dir layout | 00:32 |
| whit | srichter: right...and your packages sort of go together | 00:32 |
| srichter | zope.generic follows a pretty drastic deisgn idea and all the sub-packages really follow that; I am ok with that bagging | 00:33 |
| philiKON | then there should be at least a README.txt explaining exactly that | 00:33 |
| whit | that works with what I'm saying. as does having z3c be a staging ground for things to move into zope | 00:33 |
| srichter | philiKON: look, we develop z3c while we are doing customer projects; sometimes things have to go fast; when we have time we come back and fix it; it is really a practical thing | 00:34 |
| philiKON | srichter, wasn't it you who told jeff shell that you really should take time to make things public? | 00:34 |
| philiKON | if you make'em public, let's play by the rules | 00:34 |
| philiKON | i know, it's just a stupid dir layout | 00:34 |
| srichter | yep | 00:34 |
| philiKON | but things start there | 00:34 |
| srichter | we take the time to make them public | 00:35 |
| philiKON | (all that only applies for making public in svn.zope.org, of course) | 00:35 |
| srichter | but some things are not necessary until a later stage | 00:35 |
| srichter | such as certain files for releases | 00:35 |
| philiKON | perhaps. but svn.zope.org is a public place | 00:35 |
| philiKON | lots of people. including people from outside the community, looka t it | 00:36 |
| * benji realizes that his uncontrollable ability to start flame wars has struck again. | 00:36 | |
| philiKON | msising README.txt are just bad marketing | 00:36 |
| philiKON | dang, i've sad the m word | 00:36 |
| * whit pass benji the matches | 00:36 | |
| *** benji is now known as firestarter_benj | 00:37 | |
| srichter | if I was involved in any zope.org package release, the package definitely has a README.txt for unit testing | 00:37 |
| *** firestarter_benj is now known as benji | 00:37 | |
| philiKON | a 2 liner w/ "This is plumbing.toilet. It's used for plumbing toilets through the walls" would be enough | 00:38 |
| philiKON | (for now) | 00:38 |
| philiKON | (when you do things quickly, as you said) | 00:38 |
| philiKON | if you don't want to do that, there's always the Sandbox | 00:38 |
| philiKON | at least as far as i understood it, the Sandbox was for when you don't want to play by the rules, for now | 00:39 |
| srichter | but why? Anyone who wants to use repository packages looks for prefix.name/src/prefix/name/README.txt | 00:39 |
| benji | from plumbing.toilet import flush, jiggle_handle, plunge | 00:39 |
| philiKON | srichter, where's zope.generic's ERADME.txt? | 00:39 |
| whit | import plumbing.toilet.Plunger | 00:40 |
| srichter | I didn't even realize that most packages have a prefix.name/README.txt | 00:40 |
| whit | srichter: off topic, is your adapter presentation online anywhere? | 00:40 |
| srichter | I have not been involved in zope.generic releasing, I personally don't even get it, but that does not mean other people should not look at it | 00:40 |
| philiKON | oh boy, what have I startd with the plumbing.toilet thing | 00:40 |
| benji | me either, srichter; I don't think any of the zc.* ones do | 00:41 |
| srichter | I Think Dominik would be very responsive to the README request; I know for sure he does not read zope3-dev regularly | 00:41 |
| whit | I really would like to get..... projekt01 can you get dominik to make a readme for generic? | 00:41 |
| philiKON | srichter, he was actually CCed | 00:41 |
| whit | get it | 00:41 |
| philiKON | srichter, i specifically remember that | 00:41 |
| srichter | ok, so ask him again | 00:42 |
| philiKON | and he took part in the discussion | 00:42 |
| srichter | but it's not the worst thing that can happen | 00:42 |
| philiKON | will do. when i see him :) | 00:42 |
| srichter | he writes unit tests and you can get it from there | 00:42 |
| *** gumpa has left #zope3-dev | 00:42 | |
| srichter | btw, the zope.org repository is not a good place to start marketing | 00:43 |
| philiKON | but people look at it | 00:43 |
| srichter | I think a ZSCP site would be, where such documentation requirements are made | 00:43 |
| philiKON | people like ian bicking do it to see wht zope has to offer | 00:43 |
| philiKON | and it makes sense | 00:43 |
| philiKON | srichter, i agree. | 00:43 |
| srichter | (yeah, yeah, I have to finish it; I'll start that train again when I am back in the US) | 00:43 |
| philiKON | heck, even a cheeseshop category would be better than anything | 00:43 |
| *** k0s has joined #zope3-dev | 00:45 | |
| * philiKON wants the ferraribook pro http://www.idealgadget.com/2006/05/08/colored-macbook-pro/ | 00:47 | |
| J1m | cheeseshopcatagories seem pretty pointless atm | 00:52 |
| philiKON | i dunno. browsing http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=browse and finding 'Zope' would be nice | 00:55 |
| *** dokai has quit IRC | 00:55 | |
| philiKON | *yawn* g'night | 00:56 |
| *** philiKON has quit IRC | 00:56 | |
| *** TresEquis has quit IRC | 01:00 | |
| *** povbot` has joined #zope3-dev | 01:03 | |
| *** povbot has quit IRC | 01:04 | |
| *** yota has quit IRC | 01:35 | |
| *** jinty has quit IRC | 01:39 | |
| *** J1m has quit IRC | 01:46 | |
| *** benji has quit IRC | 01:46 | |
| *** volvox has joined #zope3-dev | 01:48 | |
| *** elro has joined #zope3-dev | 02:10 | |
| *** elro has quit IRC | 02:16 | |
| *** rocky is now known as rocky|Zzz | 02:24 | |
| *** volvox has quit IRC | 02:30 | |
| *** elro has joined #zope3-dev | 02:39 | |
| *** alga_ has joined #zope3-dev | 02:46 | |
| *** alga_ has quit IRC | 02:47 | |
| *** elro has quit IRC | 03:37 | |
| *** alecm has joined #zope3-dev | 03:43 | |
| *** niemeyer has quit IRC | 04:28 | |
| *** alga has quit IRC | 04:44 | |
| *** stub has joined #zope3-dev | 04:52 | |
| *** projekt01 has left #zope3-dev | 05:03 | |
| *** TresEquis has joined #zope3-dev | 05:11 | |
| *** MacYET has joined #zope3-dev | 06:07 | |
| *** TresEquis has quit IRC | 06:52 | |
| *** alecm has quit IRC | 07:07 | |
| *** povbot has joined #zope3-dev | 07:34 | |
| *** alecm has joined #zope3-dev | 07:35 | |
| *** povbot` has quit IRC | 07:49 | |
| *** stub has quit IRC | 08:03 | |
| *** eins has joined #zope3-dev | 08:09 | |
| *** MacYET has left #zope3-dev | 08:42 | |
| *** stub has joined #zope3-dev | 08:43 | |
| *** zagy has joined #zope3-dev | 08:47 | |
| *** alecm has quit IRC | 08:51 | |
| *** alecm has joined #zope3-dev | 08:53 | |
| *** philiKON has joined #zope3-dev | 08:59 | |
| *** srichter has quit IRC | 09:06 | |
| *** srichter has joined #zope3-dev | 09:12 | |
| *** alecm has quit IRC | 09:13 | |
| *** alecm has joined #zope3-dev | 09:14 | |
| *** dobee has joined #zope3-dev | 09:25 | |
| *** hdima has joined #zope3-dev | 09:48 | |
| *** alecm has quit IRC | 09:52 | |
| *** romanofski has quit IRC | 09:52 | |
| *** alecm has joined #zope3-dev | 09:54 | |
| *** alecm has quit IRC | 10:01 | |
| *** philiKON has quit IRC | 10:04 | |
| *** dobee has quit IRC | 10:21 | |
| *** flox_ has joined #zope3-dev | 10:46 | |
| *** flox_ is now known as flox | 10:46 | |
| *** flox has quit IRC | 10:47 | |
| *** srichter has quit IRC | 10:49 | |
| *** philiKON has joined #zope3-dev | 10:50 | |
| *** kobold has joined #zope3-dev | 10:51 | |
| *** flox has joined #zope3-dev | 11:07 | |
| *** stub has quit IRC | 11:17 | |
| *** volvox has joined #zope3-dev | 11:18 | |
| *** stub has joined #zope3-dev | 12:09 | |
| *** jinty has joined #zope3-dev | 12:19 | |
| *** timte has joined #zope3-dev | 12:35 | |
| *** faassen has joined #zope3-dev | 12:52 | |
| *** dunny has joined #zope3-dev | 13:21 | |
| *** dunny has quit IRC | 13:41 | |
| philiKON | we are the zorg. resistance is futile | 13:52 |
| philiKON | adaption is necessary | 13:52 |
| *** dobee has joined #zope3-dev | 13:54 | |
| *** dobee has quit IRC | 13:56 | |
| faassen | :) | 13:58 |
| *** volvox has quit IRC | 14:12 | |
| *** J1m has joined #zope3-dev | 14:21 | |
| *** rocky|Zzz is now known as rocky | 14:21 | |
| philiKON | faassen, good post on that django blog | 14:25 |
| philiKON | faassen, i also replied | 14:25 |
| philiKON | http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2006/aug/22/pronouncement/ | 14:25 |
| *** volvox has joined #zope3-dev | 14:34 | |
| *** ktwilight has quit IRC | 14:37 | |
| *** mg|away is now known as mgedmin | 14:45 | |
| *** alga has joined #zope3-dev | 14:48 | |
| *** stu1 has joined #zope3-dev | 14:55 | |
| mgedmin | Zope Zoftware Zystems Consortium :) | 14:57 |
| philiKON | :) | 15:00 |
| faassen | anyway it's just that Stephan can generate new namespace packages faster than many of us can blink. :) | 15:04 |
| philiKON | lol, well said | 15:05 |
| faassen | philiKON: thanks for the kudos points on my blog, by the way. | 15:05 |
| faassen | I had that blog posting in my drafts for a long time, I figured what the heck, let's post it now. | 15:06 |
| philiKON | :) | 15:06 |
| faassen | I was waiting for some release work on OAICore and such, I think, but what the heck. :) | 15:06 |
| philiKON | yeah | 15:06 |
| faassen | or perhaps we already did that release by now. I don't know. :) | 15:06 |
| philiKON | man, phillip eby wrote such a great foreword for my 2nd ed. | 15:06 |
| faassen | oh, cool! | 15:06 |
| philiKON | it says all the points about zope that i could now use in this django hype discussion | 15:07 |
| faassen | *grin* | 15:07 |
| faassen | I'm going to give a keynote at the DZUG thing. | 15:07 |
| *** andrew_m has joined #zope3-dev | 15:07 | |
| philiKON | faassen, you still have access, i recommend you'd read it :) | 15:07 |
| faassen | so I've been pondering what to do the keynote about. | 15:07 |
| *** nathany has joined #zope3-dev | 15:07 | |
| *** benji has joined #zope3-dev | 15:09 | |
| philiKON | hey nathany | 15:10 |
| philiKON | nathany, going to be at ploneconf? | 15:10 |
| nathany | philiKON: wasn't planning on it -- been a bit overwhelmed with travel lately... when/where is it | 15:12 |
| philiKON | end of october, seattle | 15:12 |
| philiKON | yeah, same here actually, but i decided to go anyways after my tutorial got accepted | 15:12 |
| nathany | ah, cool | 15:12 |
| *** stub has quit IRC | 15:13 | |
| nathany | yeah, i doubt it... been away about every other week this summer, so ready to take a break :) | 15:13 |
| philiKON | too bad. but there'll be other opportunities :) | 15:17 |
| nathany | yeah... i *would* like to go to Seattle, so maybe I should look @ the program :) | 15:18 |
| philiKON | the program is *awesome*( | 15:19 |
| nathany | well it must be if you're in it ;) | 15:19 |
| philiKON | http://plone.org/events/conferences/seattle-2006/agenda | 15:19 |
| philiKON | my talk is sort of niche-y this time | 15:20 |
| philiKON | i've left the general "Zope 3 for all!" battlefield for others ;) | 15:20 |
| nathany | wow, that does look good | 15:20 |
| philiKON | i've collected my favourites (http://www.z3lab.org/sections/blogs/philipp-weitershausen/2006_08_23_wicked-borgs-eating) | 15:21 |
| nathany | cool | 15:22 |
| *** niemeyer has joined #zope3-dev | 15:23 | |
| *** volvox has quit IRC | 15:37 | |
| *** J1m has quit IRC | 15:42 | |
| *** J1m has joined #zope3-dev | 15:44 | |
| *** ktwilight has joined #zope3-dev | 15:56 | |
| tiredbones | philikon, www,z3lab,org does not seem to be a good url. | 16:10 |
| benji | I assume you didn't type it with commas (as above), tiredbones | 16:12 |
| *** stu1 has quit IRC | 16:12 | |
| benji | www.z3lab.org is very slow, but it does respond | 16:12 |
| tiredbones | benji, ya very slow. thanks | 16:13 |
| *** edgordon has joined #zope3-dev | 16:14 | |
| *** mexiKON has joined #zope3-dev | 16:15 | |
| *** philiKON has quit IRC | 16:18 | |
| *** alecm has joined #zope3-dev | 16:27 | |
| *** ktwilight has quit IRC | 16:29 | |
| *** zagy has quit IRC | 16:34 | |
| *** mexiKON has quit IRC | 16:35 | |
| *** eins has quit IRC | 16:36 | |
| *** philiKON has joined #zope3-dev | 16:50 | |
| *** volvox has joined #zope3-dev | 16:53 | |
| *** ktwilight has joined #zope3-dev | 17:01 | |
| *** hdima has quit IRC | 17:09 | |
| *** jinty has quit IRC | 17:14 | |
| *** jinty_ has joined #zope3-dev | 17:14 | |
| *** stub has joined #zope3-dev | 17:25 | |
| *** timte has quit IRC | 17:25 | |
| *** zbir has quit IRC | 17:29 | |
| *** zbir has joined #zope3-dev | 17:29 | |
| *** zbir has quit IRC | 17:33 | |
| *** zbir has joined #zope3-dev | 17:33 | |
| faassen | J1m: question about zc.buildout | 17:33 |
| faassen | J1m: if you're around | 17:34 |
| J1m | sure | 17:34 |
| *** ktwilight has quit IRC | 17:35 | |
| *** alga has quit IRC | 17:36 | |
| faassen | J1m: okay, I am looking at the zc.sharing sample buildout | 17:37 |
| faassen | J1m: and I'm trying to understand how you include zc.sharing itself in it | 17:37 |
| faassen | J1m: do you make an egg of it first? | 17:37 |
| J1m | Yes, by virtue of it being a develop egg, listed in the develop option. | 17:38 |
| faassen | hm, develop option | 17:38 |
| J1m | buildout:develop | 17:38 |
| faassen | so 'develop = .' | 17:39 |
| J1m | It is also listed as am ehh in the instance section | 17:39 |
| J1m | yes | 17:39 |
| J1m | have you read buildout.txt? | 17:40 |
| faassen | I will read it more carefully. | 17:40 |
| J1m | s/am/egg | 17:40 |
| faassen | I read bits and pieces. | 17:40 |
| faassen | but this looks like the bit I was missing. | 17:41 |
| faassen | thanks! | 17:41 |
| J1m | the develop section, if present, has a list of one or more setup scripts or directories containing setupscripts. | 17:41 |
| *** jinty_ has quit IRC | 17:41 | |
| faassen | I'm vaguely considering something like 'buildout for idiots' :) | 17:41 |
| faassen | right. | 17:41 |
| *** jinty has joined #zope3-dev | 17:41 | |
| J1m | Each of them us used to create a develop egg. | 17:41 |
| faassen | that makes sense to me now, I just missed that bit. | 17:41 |
| faassen | I mean, I'm vaguely considering writing something like buildout for idiots :) | 17:41 |
| faassen | it's not that hard, so it could be a short document, hopefully. | 17:41 |
| J1m | Great | 17:41 |
| J1m | It might just work through some example buildouts. | 17:42 |
| faassen | yes. | 17:42 |
| faassen | I'd missed the significant of the 'develop = .' | 17:42 |
| faassen | the zc.sharing recipe is almost what one'd need for a zope 3 buildout though. | 17:42 |
| faassen | I'm trying to make a documentlibrary buildout. | 17:42 |
| J1m | BTW, I think that http://svn.zope.org/zc.ngi/ provides an example of a very simple buildout. | 17:43 |
| J1m | I think this will be fairly prototypical of a case of working on a Python package and wanting a test runner and for all of it's dependencies to be fetched. | 17:44 |
| faassen | yes, that's a nice idea. | 17:44 |
| faassen | oh, by the way, to launch bootstrap I needed setuptools installed, is that correct? | 17:44 |
| faassen | I mean, I did have a setuptools installed, just not the newest version, so I had to update it. | 17:44 |
| J1m | no, just a sec | 17:44 |
| faassen | perhaps it got tricked as I had a too old version of setuptools installed | 17:45 |
| faassen | so it thought oh, setuptools, let's use that instead of getting our own. I don' know. | 17:45 |
| faassen | it did end up getting an egg too. | 17:45 |
| J1m | bootstrap.py will download setuptools for you. | 17:46 |
| J1m | Right, if setuptools is installed, it will use that. | 17:46 |
| J1m | Which might not be so good. | 17:46 |
| J1m | bootstrap.py actually uses ez_setup.py. | 17:47 |
| J1m | Note that if you have an existing buildout, you can use it to create a new one. :) | 17:47 |
| faassen | it wasn't a big showstopper, the error message was clear. | 17:48 |
| J1m | someotherbuildout/bin/buildout bootstrap | 17:48 |
| faassen | so it was just an easy_install -U setuptools | 17:48 |
| faassen | just wanted to mention it. | 17:48 |
| J1m | build a buildout in the current dir. | 17:48 |
| faassen | what's the policy about running bin/buildout multiple times? | 17:48 |
| J1m | It is encouraged. :) | 17:49 |
| faassen | okay. I'm just rerunning it after changing the config. | 17:49 |
| faassen | and it appears to be hanging. | 17:49 |
| J1m | It isn't speedy | 17:49 |
| J1m | Give it time. | 17:49 |
| faassen | okay. :) | 17:49 |
| J1m | The network checks can take a while. | 17:50 |
| faassen | perhaps I should try the verbose option. | 17:50 |
| J1m | I have plans to speed this up quite a bit. | 17:50 |
| faassen | restarting it, I'm impatient so did a ctl-C | 17:50 |
| J1m | Yup, then you can see what' it's doing. | 17:50 |
| faassen | anyway, so far it's pretty cool. | 17:50 |
| faassen | this should change the nature of zope 3 development quite a bit. | 17:50 |
| faassen | and beyond that. | 17:50 |
| J1m | Also, if you know you won't need to download anything, you can use buildout:ofline=true | 17:51 |
| faassen | that buildout:foo syntax. | 17:51 |
| J1m | on the command line and it will skip the checks for new versions. | 17:51 |
| J1m | This makes it go much faster. | 17:51 |
| J1m | Yes, what about it? | 17:51 |
| faassen | so that's a commandline version of saying 'offline=true' in the [buildout] section of the cfg file? | 17:51 |
| J1m | exactly | 17:51 |
| J1m | This is documented in buildout.txt :) | 17:52 |
| faassen | I know. | 17:52 |
| faassen | but that's a loooong document. | 17:52 |
| faassen | and I'm a lazy programmer. :) | 17:52 |
| faassen | there it is, command-line usage. | 17:52 |
| faassen | yup. | 17:52 |
| faassen | anyway, with that recent zc.* open sourcing of yours, zope 3 is starting to really look like a pool of wonderful little components you can glue together. :) | 17:55 |
| faassen | there's just so much cool stuff one can combine together by now. | 17:56 |
| rocky | yep | 17:56 |
| faassen | I know that was the goal all along. :) | 17:56 |
| rocky | i've already begun brainstorming on the plone layer required to make zc.comments work in plone ) | 17:56 |
| rocky | :) | 17:56 |
| faassen | it's just fun to realize the goal is being reached. | 17:56 |
| faassen | yeah, and I helped giving zope 3 fire to the plonies. | 17:56 |
| faassen | see what I've done! | 17:56 |
| * faassen points at rocky | 17:56 | |
| whit | right...nothing is as cool as watching something hit the tipping point | 17:57 |
| faassen | we need a cool website. | 17:57 |
| rocky | haha | 17:57 |
| faassen | anyway, I'm working on it. | 17:57 |
| faassen | you guys need to help me. | 17:57 |
| faassen | I mean whit and rocky | 17:57 |
| faassen | of course. | 17:57 |
| * rocky commits to criticizing faassen on everything he does with the cool website as his contribution :) | 17:57 | |
| faassen | oh, right, I hear you volunteer. silence is volunteering. | 17:58 |
| faassen | rocky: I get that for free, I don't need people to volunteer for that. :) | 17:58 |
| * whit chuckles | 17:58 | |
| rocky | =) | 17:58 |
| rocky | faassen: what kind of help you need? | 17:59 |
| faassen | rocky: well, join zope-web | 17:59 |
| faassen | rocky: then, say, help us put togethre the foundation website as a sample case. | 17:59 |
| faassen | rocky: then as a next stage, we'll tackle zope.org's homepage and such. | 17:59 |
| rocky | zope-web is a mailing list?\ | 18:00 |
| faassen | rocky: I mostly need people who can write a bit. | 18:00 |
| faassen | rocky: yup, zope-web@zope.org | 18:00 |
| faassen | http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web | 18:00 |
| rocky | i guess i can add one more... 17 subscribed mailing isn't enough anyhow | 18:00 |
| faassen | in particular read this: | 18:00 |
| faassen | http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2006-August/003916.html | 18:01 |
| faassen | and this | 18:01 |
| faassen | http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2006-August/003934.html | 18:01 |
| faassen | especially the latter has a dramatic lack of anyone responding. :) | 18:01 |
| philiKON | faassen, re: pool of wonderful little coponents: i blogged about this. I realized that nowadays there are quite a bit of solutions for z3 out there... | 18:01 |
| *** jinty has quit IRC | 18:01 | |
| faassen | anyway, concerning the buildout story.. | 18:01 |
| faassen | philiKON: yeah, I think I read that. | 18:02 |
| faassen | philiKON: I did read that. :) | 18:02 |
| philiKON | i feel that we're slowly getting back to where zope 2 was a few years ago ;) | 18:02 |
| faassen | anyway, somehow it's still not making my documentlibrary part of the zope. | 18:02 |
| faassen | no, zope 2 never had this. | 18:02 |
| philiKON | it had/has lots of add on "products" | 18:02 |
| faassen | zope 2 had a lot of bigger course grained components with ZMI UIs. | 18:02 |
| faassen | that slowly tended to drift apart. | 18:03 |
| philiKON | well... true. the scope is perhaps different | 18:03 |
| philiKON | we're really creating libraries, not products | 18:03 |
| faassen | I mean, that's pretty good too, I mean, some pretty powerful ones. | 18:03 |
| philiKON | still. in zope 2, most of the things you wanted to do you could be sure there were already a few solutions out there | 18:03 |
| philiKON | even if you didn't end up taking one of them, you could use them for inspiration | 18:03 |
| philiKON | and you'd at least know it's possible | 18:03 |
| rocky | the smallest component available to a plone developer before zope3 was generally a content type ... the thing is, content types in a cmf/plone sense were never reusable (really), everytime you wanted to do something with a content type you ended up extending an existing one to introduce a new one | 18:07 |
| benji | yep, focused, well designed libraries are good; even if your main goal is to build something more "product" like on top | 18:08 |
| benji | something else we need to keep in mind is how a package might be useful to people outside of the Zope community (like the just checked-in zope.etree package) | 18:09 |
| benji | why isn't that named (z3c|zorg).etree, anyway? | 18:10 |
| faassen | benji: who cares, it's free for all anyway for namespaces packages? :) | 18:16 |
| benji | apparently | 18:16 |
| faassen | cool, it does something with elementtree. :) | 18:16 |
| benji | I do feel, like philiKON, that the zope namespace is a little special though | 18:16 |
| faassen | oh, I agree, I was just being facetious :) | 18:17 |
| benji | right, it seems like the right model for something like that is to make it generally useful first, then have a zope-specific subpackage (but I haven't looked closely at it yet( | 18:17 |
| * benji wonders if he'll exceed his monthly flamewar quota by suggesting on the list that zope.etree should be in a different namespace | 18:18 | |
| philiKON | what's zope.etree? | 18:18 |
| faassen | philiKON: it's for people who don't want to use lxml by default. :) | 18:19 |
| philiKON | ah, it's a thing factored out of zope.webdav, i presume | 18:19 |
| faassen | anyway, I'm somewhat wondering why it just doesn't rely on cElementTree. | 18:20 |
| faassen | it mentions it can use plain ElementTree, and lxml. | 18:20 |
| faassen | but cElementTree is the obvious choice if you just want what's in ElementTree + fast. | 18:20 |
| faassen | lxml is what you want in ElementTree + fast + lots of features. | 18:21 |
| philiKON | esp. lots of features | 18:21 |
| faassen | anyway, so the main reason to start using lxml is features. | 18:22 |
| faassen | if you just want performance cElementTree is dandy. | 18:22 |
| faassen | so I'm a bit curious what the motivation behind zope.etree is. | 18:23 |
| faassen | I shouldn't as it allows zope to use lxml, but only in the common subset situation with ElementTree, where it's really not that useful. | 18:23 |
| faassen | I guess I'll ask on the mailing list. | 18:23 |
| philiKON | +1 | 18:24 |
| faassen | anyway, peculiar. | 18:32 |
| faassen | I feel weird telling someone to go use cElementTree instead. :) | 18:32 |
| * benji wants lots of features (XPath especially) | 18:45 | |
| rocky | in my mind it's silly that zope(2|3) ships without *any* xpath/xslt support | 18:46 |
| *** flox has quit IRC | 18:49 | |
| *** alecm has quit IRC | 18:52 | |
| benji | rocky: I kind of agree, but I have high hopes that the eggification of 3.4 and the further eggification of other packages will make adding xpath/xslt to a project trivial (so we can avoid packaging one with Zope) | 18:52 |
| faassen | benji: right, it's just libxml2 remains a requirement. | 18:52 |
| faassen | benji: in case of lxml, which of course is the implementation of choice. :) | 18:52 |
| faassen | benji: I was wondering just now whether one can write a buildout recipe to install a C library. :) | 18:52 |
| faassen | benji: one that says gimmie libxml 2.5245.66 | 18:53 |
| benji | faassen: that's why we have a buildout recipe to create libxml2, so it's just as easy to install as a lxml | 18:53 |
| faassen | benji: oh, you hae one already | 18:53 |
| faassen | benji: you sneaky people | 18:53 |
| benji | for the old-new-buildout (the one that preceeded Jim's zc.buildout) | 18:54 |
| faassen | benji: ah, okay. | 18:54 |
| faassen | well, if we have one for the new new buildout. | 18:54 |
| benji | but it'll be easy enough to translate to a new-new-style buildout recipe | 18:54 |
| faassen | cool. | 18:54 |
| benji | yeah, having a recipe really takes the claws out of deploying hairy C libs | 18:55 |
| faassen | yeah. | 18:55 |
| *** k0s is now known as jhammel | 19:01 | |
| philiKON | faassen, there's a cmmi recipe | 19:08 |
| philiKON | faassen, configure make make install | 19:08 |
| *** oferw has joined #zope3-dev | 19:12 | |
| *** edgordon is now known as edgordon_away | 19:12 | |
| *** batlogg has joined #zope3-dev | 19:14 | |
| *** batlogg has quit IRC | 19:17 | |
| *** stub has quit IRC | 19:28 | |
| * benji suspects philiKON has never tried to build libxml2, after suggesting that "just" | 19:31 | |
| philiKON | ;) | 19:31 |
| benji | ... configure/make/make install will work | 19:31 |
| benji | :) | 19:31 |
| philiKON | i actually have built libxml2, a while ago, though | 19:32 |
| *** oferw has quit IRC | 19:58 | |
| *** volvox has quit IRC | 19:59 | |
| *** rocky is now known as rocky|away | 20:02 | |
| *** zbir has quit IRC | 20:06 | |
| *** rocky|away is now known as rocky | 20:06 | |
| * mgedmin wants philiKON's ezmerge.py script, but www.z3lab.org is not responding... | 20:10 | |
| philiKON | shrug | 20:10 |
| philiKON | mgedmin, http://codespeak.net/svn/user/philikon/ezmerge.py | 20:11 |
| mgedmin | thanks! | 20:11 |
| philiKON | np | 20:12 |
| philiKON | this thing is a life saver :) | 20:12 |
| mgedmin | oh yes | 20:14 |
| MJ | mgedmin: your bug 697 reminded me of something I needed to report for ZPT in Zope2.. | 20:24 |
| MJ | But I am not sure if it still occurs | 20:24 |
| MJ | An error in a macro, and an on-error on a template using the macro | 20:24 |
| MJ | will bust the macro stack, causing later macros to fail to render | 20:25 |
| MJ | so <div tal:on-error="oops" metal:use-macro="here/template/macros/macroname"/> | 20:25 |
| MJ | and here/template causes an error. | 20:25 |
| MJ | Haven't had time to file a report and/or see if it still occurs in the Z3 tal engine. | 20:26 |
| MJ | philiKON: ezmerge is a great lil' script | 20:26 |
| *** whit|out is now known as whitux | 20:28 | |
| *** batlogg has joined #zope3-dev | 20:29 | |
| *** kobold has left #zope3-dev | 20:30 | |
| *** elro has joined #zope3-dev | 20:31 | |
| *** batlogg has quit IRC | 20:33 | |
| *** oferw has joined #zope3-dev | 20:34 | |
| *** batlogg has joined #zope3-dev | 20:34 | |
| mgedmin | MJ: what a familiar bug | 20:37 |
| mgedmin | I just saw fred drake's checkin fixing it in zope 3 | 20:37 |
| *** philiKON has quit IRC | 20:38 | |
| mgedmin | http://svn.zope.org/?rev=66016&view=rev | 20:38 |
| *** alecm has joined #zope3-dev | 20:38 | |
| *** flox has joined #zope3-dev | 20:42 | |
| MJ | mgedmin: Heh :) | 20:45 |
| *** faassen has quit IRC | 20:45 | |
| MJ | That bug bit me a while ago on a Plone project.. | 20:45 |
| *** rocky is now known as rocky|away | 20:46 | |
| *** elro has quit IRC | 20:52 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has joined #zope3-dev | 20:56 | |
| *** flox has quit IRC | 21:04 | |
| *** flox has joined #zope3-dev | 21:08 | |
| *** oferw has quit IRC | 21:08 | |
| *** jhammel has left #zope3-dev | 21:12 | |
| *** jinty has joined #zope3-dev | 21:18 | |
| *** niemeyer has quit IRC | 21:41 | |
| WebMaven | Is something wrong with z3lab.org? | 21:53 |
| *** RaFromBRC has quit IRC | 21:54 | |
| mgedmin | I think so, I couldn't connect to it a bit earlier | 21:55 |
| *** ktwilight has joined #zope3-dev | 22:02 | |
| WebMaven | Does z3lab have it's own IRC channel? | 22:03 |
| WebMaven | Or is this one it? | 22:03 |
| *** dunny has joined #zope3-dev | 22:05 | |
| whitux | maybe try the cps channel? | 22:05 |
| *** niemeyer has joined #zope3-dev | 22:05 | |
| *** edgordon_away is now known as edgordon | 22:14 | |
| WebMaven | looks like it's back up. | 22:16 |
| *** rocky|away is now known as rocky | 22:20 | |
| *** nathany has quit IRC | 22:23 | |
| *** flox has quit IRC | 22:41 | |
| *** flox has joined #zope3-dev | 22:41 | |
| *** edgordon has quit IRC | 22:52 | |
| *** jinty has quit IRC | 22:57 | |
| *** oferw has joined #zope3-dev | 22:59 | |
| *** zbir has joined #zope3-dev | 23:10 | |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 23:18 | |
| benji | ordered your mac pro yet, zbir? :) | 23:18 |
| zbir | heh. I wish. | 23:18 |
| zbir | Just making do with my MacBook Pro and my MacBook on either side of my big ass Dell monitor. | 23:18 |
| benji | heh :) | 23:19 |
| *** RealityCheck has joined #zope3-dev | 23:20 | |
| RealityCheck | hello | 23:20 |
| RealityCheck | i have a question about zope3's sql methods and zpt | 23:22 |
| *** RealityCheck has quit IRC | 23:28 | |
| *** nisha_cgx has joined #zope3-dev | 23:41 | |
| *** philiKON has joined #zope3-dev | 23:42 | |
| *** oferw has quit IRC | 23:48 | |
| flox | wher i find the tales doc? | 23:48 |
| philiKON | flox, http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ZPT/TALES%20Specification%201.3 | 23:49 |
| flox | i do not understandthis expresssion: ${context/zope:title_or_name} | 23:49 |
| philiKON | flox, do you know how i found this? | 23:49 |
| philiKON | flox, googling for "tales specification" | 23:49 |
| flox | ;-) | 23:49 |
| philiKON | flox, what do you not understand? | 23:49 |
| philiKON | flox, i'm telling you this because you could've googled as well :) | 23:49 |
| flox | u're right... but i hav a loss of confidence on googling zope things... | 23:50 |
| philiKON | you can always try first, though | 23:50 |
| flox | definitely, u're right | 23:51 |
| flox | philiKON: what is the 'zope:title_or_name' thing, in the expression above? | 23:53 |
| philiKON | zope: is a namespace adapter | 23:53 |
| philiKON | context doesn't have a title_or_name attribute | 23:53 |
| philiKON | so, we adapt it | 23:53 |
| philiKON | see zope.app.pagetemplate.talesapi | 23:54 |
| flox | i go to see that | 23:54 |
| flox | i assume that 'title_or_id' is somewhere in zope standard package? | 23:54 |
| philiKON | look at zope.app.pagetemplate.talesapi. title_or_name is defined there | 23:55 |
| philiKON | title_or_id does not exist | 23:55 |
| flox | oh, yes... i've read the zope.org page about "name, id and key" some day | 23:56 |
| flox | philiKON: thanks for the 'talesapi' thing. exactly what i was looking for. | 23:58 |
| philiKON | np | 23:58 |
| flox | philiKON, i hv a question about the zope.formlib and zope.contentprovider thing. | 23:59 |
| flox | i need to display a search module somewhere on my web page | 23:59 |
| flox | i think of a "formlib to do that | 23:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!