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| tlotze | hi | 12:18 |
| tlotze | still wondering about zope.app.container stuff... | 12:18 |
| tlotze | this time the containment constraints | 12:19 |
| tlotze | Is there any special reason why constraints on container types and types of items in a container are expressed in such different way? | 12:19 |
| philiKON | tlotze, what do you mean? | 12:20 |
| tlotze | Especially the fact that the container type constraint is a Field on the contained interface is a bit annoying, since it keeps interfering with any other schema fields on the interface it is used on. | 12:20 |
| philiKON | well, it is a constraint on the __parent__ field | 12:21 |
| philiKON | i think that makes sense | 12:21 |
| philiKON | if you want to avoid interference, put the constraint on a different interface | 12:21 |
| tlotze | The trouble is that __parent__ is a field at all. | 12:21 |
| tlotze | sure | 12:21 |
| philiKON | IRecipe has the normal fields and IRecipeCOntained has the __parent__ field | 12:21 |
| tlotze | but that leads to a lot of small interfaces which exists for a purely technical reason | 12:21 |
| philiKON | you're trying to express a technical thing :) | 12:22 |
| tlotze | hm | 12:22 |
| tlotze | dunno | 12:22 |
| philiKON | note that the "interference" can easily be avoided, too | 12:22 |
| philiKON | when in formlib, just omit __arent__ and __name__ | 12:22 |
| philiKON | for example | 12:22 |
| tlotze | but it feels a little awkward having to do this | 12:23 |
| tlotze | I mean, you have no choice whether to exclude __parent__, for example. | 12:23 |
| philiKON | what do you mean? | 12:23 |
| tlotze | There's simply no widget for it, so formlib will bomb if you forget to exclude it. | 12:23 |
| philiKON | so? | 12:23 |
| philiKON | exlude it :) | 12:24 |
| tlotze | That's what I feel is awkward. | 12:24 |
| philiKON | form_fields = Fields(IRecipe).omit('__parent__', '__name__') | 12:24 |
| tlotze | Having to express things which don't give me a choice anyway. | 12:24 |
| philiKON | why not | 12:24 |
| philiKON | there could be a widget for __parent__ | 12:24 |
| philiKON | perhaps someone has that use case | 12:24 |
| philiKON | formlib and containment are orthogonal | 12:24 |
| * tlotze tr4ies to imagine one... | 12:25 | |
| philiKON | zope.schema.Object has a widget | 12:25 |
| philiKON | for example :) | 12:25 |
| tlotze | phew | 12:25 |
| philiKON | anyways, you could of course register a null-widget | 12:25 |
| philiKON | for __parent__ | 12:25 |
| tlotze | I mean, strictly speaking, you're right. | 12:25 |
| philiKON | but that seems hardly worht the effort | 12:25 |
| tlotze | It's just that I find code littered with these containment interfaces which all look the same - not very elegant, I feel. | 12:26 |
| philiKON | i think it depends on the way you want to express things | 12:27 |
| philiKON | if you can imagine recipes that aren't contained, splitting it up is ok i think | 12:27 |
| philiKON | IRecipe expresses recipe data | 12:27 |
| philiKON | IREcipeContained expresses how recipes fit into the hierarchy in a particular app | 12:28 |
| MJ | philiKON: Nice solution to the virtual host prob | 12:28 |
| MJ | philiKON: I take it you'll need to assign the custom IVirtualHostRoot interface to the folder traversed? | 12:29 |
| tlotze | philiKON, sure | 12:29 |
| MJ | (you didn't say in your email) | 12:29 |
| philiKON | MJ, yeah, forgot to say that | 12:29 |
| philiKON | MJ, feel free to reply | 12:29 |
| tlotze | It's just so wordy... | 12:29 |
| * MJ closed the browser already.. | 12:29 | |
| MJ | Sorry, I am about to leave, so I can't. | 12:30 |
| philiKON | tlotze, true. what are you suggesting though? | 12:30 |
| philiKON | i mean, the inteference in formlib, etc. can be dealt with by either explicitly omitting the fields | 12:31 |
| philiKON | or by writing helpers that do that | 12:31 |
| philiKON | so you don't have to do it all the time | 12:31 |
| philiKON | other than that i'd be happyt o listen to suggestions ;) | 12:31 |
| tlotze | I'd have suggested using an Attribute instead of a Field, or maybe something involving a method - anything that doesn't get in the way of schemas. | 12:32 |
| philiKON | Attribute has no way of specifying constraints | 12:32 |
| philiKON | we want to express a constraint | 12:32 |
| philiKON | that's what schemas are there for | 12:32 |
| philiKON | schema fields that is | 12:32 |
| philiKON | expressing constraints | 12:32 |
| philiKON | the fact that you can make forms out of them is just *one* application of schemas | 12:32 |
| philiKON | as you see, containment constraints is another one | 12:32 |
| tlotze | It's admittedly an elegant and clean design. | 12:33 |
| philiKON | i think so too | 12:33 |
| tlotze | It just ends up yielding wordy code in simple use cases. | 12:33 |
| philiKON | i sort of agree | 12:33 |
| eins | did any body succeed to use different sqlalchemy engines for different instances of objects of the same class? is it possible at all? | 12:33 |
| tlotze | philiKON, if we accept using a Field for __parent__, why not use a Field for contained items? Why stick that constraint to a method? | 12:35 |
| philiKON | which field would you use? | 12:36 |
| philiKON | containers don't store their contained objects in attributes | 12:36 |
| philiKON | they use __setitem__ | 12:36 |
| philiKON | so we have a precondition for __setitem__ | 12:36 |
| philiKON | the precondition says: only foo bojects allowed | 12:36 |
| tlotze | technically it's clear | 12:36 |
| tlotze | hm | 12:37 |
| tlotze | right | 12:37 |
| tlotze | Just caught myself in time before over-generalizing thing | 12:37 |
| tlotze | s | 12:37 |
| tlotze | ;o | 12:37 |
| tlotze | ) | 12:37 |
| tlotze | narf | 12:37 |
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| philiKON | tlotze, ;) | 12:38 |
| philiKON | tlotze, btw, the precondition system allows you to write very flexible preconditions | 12:39 |
| philiKON | such as: this container only takes persistent objects | 12:39 |
| tlotze | sure | 12:39 |
| philiKON | (of course, that could still be expressed with the interface-based one, using IPersistent) | 12:40 |
| philiKON | just giving an example | 12:40 |
| tlotze | another wild idea: what about __setparent__()? Setting the precondition on that would make for symmetry and wouldn't force a __parent__ field on an interface. | 12:41 |
| tlotze | If someone wants such a field (and widget and all) they can always choose to add one. Other don't have to... | 12:43 |
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| philiKON | tlotze, so you're suggesting that IContained objects gain a __setparent__ method? | 12:59 |
| tlotze | yes | 12:59 |
| tlotze | One might even consider sending events there, or doing something about the name the object is being assigned. | 13:00 |
| philiKON | how would get an an objects parent? | 13:01 |
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| philiKON | __getparent__ | 13:01 |
| philiKON | ? | 13:01 |
| tlotze | It would make for some symmetry while I don't see why one shouldn't just look at __parent__. | 13:02 |
| tlotze | (I'm not suggesting taking __parent__ away...) | 13:03 |
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| philiKON | ack | 13:04 |
| philiKON | seems very unpythonic to me | 13:04 |
| philiKON | not being able to set __parent__, but getting it | 13:04 |
| tlotze | true | 13:04 |
| tlotze | Would a property help solve this? | 13:05 |
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| tlotze | Setting the precondition on the getter wouldn't force a field on the interface, just a declaration of the getter. | 13:06 |
| tlotze | oh | 13:06 |
| * tlotze is away for lunch for a short while | 13:06 | |
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| tlotze | back again | 13:40 |
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| tlotze | wuah | 15:09 |
| tlotze | containment constraints lend themselves to funny things ;o) | 15:09 |
| tlotze | Suppose I have a container A and a container B. the latter being an attribute of A. | 15:09 |
| tlotze | Suppose further I have objects of class C which physically belong in B. | 15:10 |
| tlotze | And now suppose I want the add menu on A to show an entry for adding a C object (which will be added to B, not A under the hood). | 15:11 |
| tlotze | It sort of "works" if I ly to Zope about containment and put contains(<some interface implemented by C>) in an interface implemented by A. | 15:12 |
| philiKON | tlotze, don't do funny things like that :) | 15:12 |
| tlotze | But the add menu isn' the only one interested in containment constraints, so this is bad. | 15:12 |
| philiKON | the "under the hood" statement is already a sign that you're exceeding the standard containment machinery | 15:12 |
| tlotze | But what's the right way to do it? | 15:12 |
| tlotze | true | 15:12 |
| philiKON | i odn't know your use case | 15:13 |
| tlotze | I just wonder how to clean up this code... | 15:13 |
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| tlotze | A represents a rather complex entity which can be assigned many objects of types C, D, E... | 15:13 |
| tlotze | To get some sort of order into things, we collect C objects in the B container. | 15:14 |
| philiKON | what is "it"? | 15:14 |
| philiKON | sorry, what is "A" | 15:14 |
| philiKON | and it what terms is it "assigned"? | 15:15 |
| tlotze | A is a person, C is, say, letters related to the person, D might be the person's friends, whatever | 15:16 |
| philiKON | a person's friends are also persons? | 15:16 |
| tlotze | Sorry for the generic "assigned"... | 15:16 |
| philiKON | i mean, you don't necessaril yhave to express all this in containment constraints | 15:16 |
| tlotze | Or make it email addresses. | 15:16 |
| tlotze | How to affect the add menu then? | 15:17 |
| philiKON | why use the add menu? | 15:17 |
| philiKON | btw, the add menu is controlled via <browser:addMenuItem /> | 15:17 |
| tlotze | Because we use it in other places and it is what users are used to if they want to add something. | 15:17 |
| philiKON | which can point to pretty much any factory or add view | 15:17 |
| tlotze | hm | 15:17 |
| philiKON | if you want to use the add menu and do funky stuff, i want you rown adding (+) view | 15:18 |
| tlotze | What if I use addMenuItem in contradiction to container constraints? | 15:18 |
| philiKON | this adding view produces the info for the add menu | 15:18 |
| * tlotze might just as well try it out before asking stupid questions... | 15:18 | |
| philiKON | i'm not convinced the add menu is useful for adding stuff that isn't directly containment related | 15:19 |
| philiKON | there's nothing wrong with custom menus | 15:19 |
| tlotze | Ah, I didn't think of @@adding... sounds like what we want. | 15:19 |
| philiKON | not @@adding | 15:19 |
| philiKON | container/+/ | 15:19 |
| tlotze | k | 15:19 |
| philiKON | + is the adding view | 15:19 |
| philiKON | IAdding | 15:19 |
| philiKON | add forms are registered for IAdding | 15:19 |
| philiKON | it's all in my book :) | 15:19 |
| tlotze | ;o) | 15:19 |
| dobee | projekt01: ayt? | 15:32 |
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| timte | is their any info on using local utilities in zope 3.3? | 23:44 |
| philiKON | my book has some | 23:46 |
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| timte | philiKON: I meant available _now_ :) | 23:52 |
| philiKON | timte, 1st ed is available now | 23:52 |
| timte | but isn't local utilities rewritten in 3.3? | 23:52 |
| philiKON | no | 23:53 |
| philiKON | jus tmade simpler | 23:53 |
| timte | ok, I'll read in your book then, I have it here... somewhere :) | 23:55 |
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