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| dlk | http://dirtsimple.org/2006/09/not-everyone-suffers-from-zope.html | 09:31 |
|---|---|---|
| philiKON | dlk, old news ;) | 09:33 |
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| dlk | yeah, yeah, but I just got in to work ;) | 09:36 |
| dlk | i think it puts things into perspective | 09:36 |
| philiKON | which things? | 09:37 |
| dlk | wrt being able to criticize w/o being treated like anit-zope | 09:37 |
| philiKON | sure, pje has good point | 09:37 |
| philiKON | sure, pje has good points | 09:37 |
| dlk | anti. zope is ubercool but it could get better. At least that is my point of view. | 09:38 |
| philiKON | we don't forbid criticism | 09:38 |
| philiKON | we just don't like false implications | 09:38 |
| dlk | nah, but it is not really encouraged when it comes. | 09:38 |
| philiKON | nobody *likes* criticism | 09:39 |
| philiKON | but i think we've very fair with valid criticism | 09:39 |
| dlk | also, there is a lack of non-core development perception; it was true of Zope2 and it is also true of zope3. | 09:39 |
| dlk | yeah, but who gets to decide what is valid criticism. | 09:39 |
| philiKON | everyone does | 09:40 |
| dlk | well, I was quite disasspointed at the reaction to jm's blog. I don't think it was totally out of line. | 09:40 |
| dlk | disappointed, even :_) | 09:41 |
| philiKON | i think the way he was implying things was out of line. it shadows some valid points he had (which martijn pointed out, btw!) | 09:41 |
| dlk | anyway, I am starting to realize that some of more important issues are social and "attituderial" rather than technical | 09:42 |
| romanofski | moin :) | 09:42 |
| dlk | well, I don't think he was implying anything in particular. However, it is a useful tactic to neutralize criticism by claiming it "implies" stuff and then draw attention away from the actual meat of the criticism... | 09:43 |
| philiKON | of course, it's not black and white | 09:44 |
| philiKON | everyone may read the text differently | 09:44 |
| philiKON | but incidentally many seem to agree with martijn | 09:44 |
| philiKON | many who've criticized the zope community themselves before | 09:44 |
| dlk | I am not claiming that it was done intentionally, but the "implications" perceived are extremely subjective; in effect, the remaining point of discussion is that someone "implied" things, not what those things were. | 09:45 |
| dlk | still, i think that all 10 points are valid. | 09:45 |
| philiKON | i disagree (with your earlier sentence). following-up blogposts have been "attacking" some of the actual points | 09:46 |
| philiKON | including mine about deprecation | 09:46 |
| philiKON | i think carlos de la guardia did another one, martin aspeli too | 09:47 |
| dlk | hm... yes, come to think of it you are probably right... | 09:47 |
| * dlk looks around | 09:47 | |
| philiKON | dlk, don't expect much agreement though ;) | 09:48 |
| dlk | philiKON: I never do, but I hope that we sometime will agree on how to treat our valued customers/users/non-core developers. I am speaking in a very broad sense here, and not implying that they are overly mistreated now. | 09:49 |
| dlk | ie. http://theploneblog.org/blog/archive/2006/08/09/are-your-users-stuck-in-p-mode | 09:49 |
| philiKON | dunno what there is to agree on | 09:50 |
| philiKON | everyone has different clients | 09:50 |
| philiKON | different views, different products | 09:50 |
| philiKON | i think the whole self-criticism thing is unfair | 09:50 |
| dlk | heh... ok. | 09:50 |
| philiKON | recently we've been reflecting a lot | 09:50 |
| philiKON | and especially martijn deserves a lot of credit for this | 09:50 |
| philiKON | saying that zope doesn't reflect upon RoR etc. is just plain polemic | 09:51 |
| dlk | I think that it is important to get the broader picture when someone critizies- | 09:51 |
| philiKON | uh, sure | 09:52 |
| dlk | picking apart the actual examples does not lead to understanding of why someone critizise | 09:52 |
| philiKON | well, then s/he has done a bad job with the criticism | 09:53 |
| philiKON | the big picture is part of the criticism | 09:53 |
| dlk | so, instead of thinking "i don't like what is implied" or "the RoR is comparison is out of line", etc, we should start looking at what lies behind the criticism. | 09:53 |
| dlk | oh, come on philiKON; you shoudl know better than saying a thing like that. | 09:53 |
| dlk | we should be mature enough to be able to handle badly worded criticism as well. | 09:54 |
| dlk | we cannot dismiss any critic that is not able to express him-/herself in a way that we like. | 09:55 |
| philiKON | you make it sound we want the critic to say what we want | 09:55 |
| dlk | yes. | 09:55 |
| dlk | I think that is the impression i get from the reactions. | 09:55 |
| philiKON | sigh | 09:55 |
| philiKON | all i mean is: | 09:56 |
| Aiste | :) | 09:56 |
| Aiste | didn't I see this same disscussion here a few days ago? | 09:56 |
| dlk | and reactions not just to this nuxeo-stuff, but in general, on th elist, etc. | 09:56 |
| philiKON | you can't expect us to accept criticism that's badly worded and then say "nonono, you're getting this wrong, look at the big picture" | 09:56 |
| philiKON | basically, "it's your fault that you don't get the criticism" | 09:56 |
| dlk | of course I can. That is the proper way of handling thing. | 09:57 |
| theuni | good morning Aiste | 09:57 |
| philiKON | dlk, then we disagree :) | 09:57 |
| Aiste | morning theuni | 09:57 |
| dlk | Yes, it is always like that. When my customers are unhappy with me, I need to look not at what they actually say, in words, but what lead them to give mw the criticism in the first place. | 09:58 |
| dlk | lo Aiste. | 09:58 |
| theuni | dlk: I think this is something that is very developer-like, because Zope is our child/project/pony and people tend to be very protective of them. | 09:59 |
| philiKON | dlk, i'll be happy to deal with criticism, but i won't try and guess what's meant. we're all consenting adults, if somebody's implying a whole lot of stuff, then i treat this as a lot of implications. i think most people do | 09:59 |
| dlk | I am always never happy with what they say; they are students, and express themselves that way "you bunch of degenerate monkeys - why does feature X don't work, you sucky programmers. My baby sister could do it better than you, and she 3 years old." | 09:59 |
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| theuni | philiKON: obviously you can treat them as implications, but that doesn't invalidate what he implies automatically. It's input. Everybody should be happy to get any form of input. | 09:59 |
| theuni | Otherwise you yourself say (imply?) that you have enough input and you can choose to listen to whatever you like. | 10:00 |
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| philiKON | of course i can, but that's obviously not a good solution | 10:00 |
| dlk | theuni: yes, I know, I am in that position myself. I have had to defend zope ever since I chose it 6 years ago, so I understand. Not only that, I find that I have a personal, touchy-feely attachment to zope and python. Very embarrasing, but there it is :-) | 10:00 |
| philiKON | i do listen to implications, too | 10:00 |
| philiKON | i've written a implication-less response to one of JMO's posts | 10:01 |
| philiKON | it's not all black'n'white | 10:01 |
| philiKON | theuni, but you can surely say that there's desctructive criticism and constructive one | 10:01 |
| philiKON | and something in between | 10:01 |
| philiKON | :) | 10:01 |
| philiKON | we should listen to everything, but can't be blamed if we don't "get the big picture" because somebody a) is implying lots of things and b) is not very constructive | 10:02 |
| dlk | philiKON: yes, but we need to accept all forms of criticism and extract the core of the matter from them. No just dismiss them | 10:02 |
| philiKON | we did that | 10:02 |
| philiKON | (in jmo's case) | 10:02 |
| philiKON | so i don't see your problem :) | 10:02 |
| * philiKON needs to get to work | 10:03 | |
| dlk | I dunno, my experience over the years is that criticism often comes for a very specific reason, the trouble is finding it. | 10:03 |
| philiKON | sure, but that's a different point | 10:03 |
| theuni | philiKON: i think if we really would listen, then we wouldn't be discussing meta-discussions. | 10:04 |
| dlk | and not over-reacting to it by just dismissing, or diminishing it. I my example above, there obviously is some problem with feature X that we need to look into. | 10:04 |
| dlk | theuni: :) | 10:04 |
| dlk | philiKON: I am not sure that it is a different point. | 10:04 |
| philiKON | theuni, we're a volunteer community with scarce resources. having a meta discussion seems strange, but it's necessary. we can't afford being side stepped by desctructive rants | 10:04 |
| dlk | philiKON: are you implying that jm's blog was a destructuve rant? | 10:05 |
| dlk | or are you speaking in general terms? | 10:05 |
| philiKON | in general terms | 10:06 |
| philiKON | we were just talking about accepting all kinds of criticism | 10:06 |
| philiKON | and i'm saying that desctructive rants would take our focus away | 10:06 |
| dlk | if so, then you will need to get accustomed to the fact that when someone works up energy enough to actually word their criticism, it will always be... let's say "passinate and expressive". | 10:06 |
| philiKON | sure | 10:07 |
| dlk | philiKON: so let's not get distracted by the tone of the criticism. | 10:07 |
| philiKON | no, but let's also not spend too much time trying to figure out the things that people are implying | 10:07 |
| dlk | its that "easy" - i know it is hard, but it is not very complicated. | 10:07 |
| dlk | uh... so you are saying that all the inital discussion about implications etc was a mistake? | 10:08 |
| theuni | philiKON: so we avoid being side-stepped by destructive rants by side-stepping and having meta-discussions? :) | 10:08 |
| philiKON | theuni, sigh, you'd rather not have any discussions then. fine. | 10:09 |
| theuni | *g | 10:09 |
| dlk | hehe... maybe we shold work for a while and come back to this later if there is something left to discuss... | 10:09 |
| theuni | indeed | 10:09 |
| * philiKON goes to work | 10:09 | |
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| * theuni produces code | 10:09 | |
| * dlk goes to meet angry customers | 10:09 | |
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| scherand | Hi, I am (still :)) in trouble with sqlos. I try to adapt the simplePerson example to my needs (existing database, mainly). Now I get a "Cannot find a name" Error when I try to add a person. I think that this has to do with my object not providing ISQLObject. But simplePerson does not provide it either but adding simplePersons works... Any hint? | 10:42 |
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| dlk | philiKON: are there still some seats left for the z3 training in Copenhagen? | 10:57 |
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| philiKON | dlk, nope | 11:07 |
| philiKON | you're about 3 months too late :/ | 11:07 |
| dlk | yeah, I know :) | 11:07 |
| dlk | I talked to my boss about before summer, and just now realised it is next week. | 11:08 |
| dlk | are there any more courses planned this year? | 11:08 |
| philiKON | no, but possibly beginning of next year | 11:10 |
| dlk | ok | 11:10 |
| philiKON | dlk, better sign up soon, we have a huge waiting list :) | 11:10 |
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| dlk | heh... Ok. | 11:12 |
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| scherand | my problem seems to be in another place. i am having trouble with unicode characters now. never mind. | 11:43 |
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| scherand | where can i find a list of field types contained in zope.schema? | 11:56 |
| philiKON | import zope.schema | 11:58 |
| philiKON | dir(zope.schema) | 11:58 |
| philiKON | scherand, or my book :) | 11:58 |
| philiKON | http://worldcookery.com | 11:58 |
| scherand | i have your book right in front of me (page 50), but it says: this list does not aim to be complete | 11:59 |
| scherand | :) | 11:59 |
| philiKON | theuni, ping | 12:03 |
| philiKON | scherand, yeah, but it almost is :) | 12:04 |
| theuni | philiKON: pong | 12:04 |
| philiKON | theuni, any luck on the windoze releae? | 12:04 |
| scherand | philiKON: btw: your book rocks! | 12:05 |
| philiKON | thanks, that's always appreciated :) | 12:05 |
| philiKON | scherand, you should see the 2nd edition in a couple of months :) | 12:05 |
| dlk | philiKON: is it preorderable yet? | 12:05 |
| philiKON | dlk, i'm trying ot find that out. already wrote an email yesterday to springer | 12:06 |
| theuni | philiKON: me? i didn't do anything. I only said I have a windoze machine that I could borrow. | 12:06 |
| philiKON | dlk, according to their website it is | 12:06 |
| dlk | and philiKON: for the record I think you rock too :) | 12:06 |
| philiKON | theuni, i thought you had VC 2003 and all that | 12:06 |
| philiKON | dlk, thanks :) | 12:06 |
| dlk | :) | 12:06 |
| philiKON | dlk, btw, i figured out what we did wrong earlier | 12:06 |
| theuni | philiKON: i do, but i don't have time | 12:06 |
| dlk | ok. | 12:07 |
| philiKON | theuni, ok, never mind then | 12:07 |
| theuni | i can give out VNC access or something if somebody wants to give it a shot | 12:07 |
| * philiKON creates an ambush for ChrisW | 12:07 | |
| dlk | heh | 12:07 |
| baijum | philiKON, what about source only release now, and Windows later ? | 12:10 |
| * baijum don't use Windows | 12:10 | |
| philiKON | baijum, yeah, but some do | 12:11 |
| theuni | and the releases must be tested and need to be the same. | 12:16 |
| philiKON | yes | 12:16 |
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| romanofski | howdy oferw | 14:13 |
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| oferw | romanofski: ok and you? | 14:15 |
| romanofski | thanks fine | 14:15 |
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| oferw | romanofski: hope that you eat something since our last talk :) | 14:16 |
| oferw | ate | 14:16 |
| romanofski | eating? whats that? *G | 14:16 |
| romanofski | yeah - sure | 14:17 |
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| scherand | dear zope-wizards: could you help me with a container-question (i am making progress, you see :))? what is the zope-way to change the view someone gets when "opening" a container? now i get a table listing all the items in the container. let's say i want this to be a bullet-list instead. or even a drop-down listing all objects where one can be chosen... | 17:48 |
| scherand | btw: by someone i mean someone only having zope.View permissions | 17:49 |
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| benji | scherand: is the container a generic container, or one you wrote? | 17:50 |
| scherand | one "i" wrote. it contains sqlos-objects. | 17:50 |
| benji | and it has its own interface? (i.e., the interface is specific to that content type?) | 17:51 |
| scherand | i tried do replace index.html with a page-template in the browser-directory, but this does not seem to be the way to go.. | 17:51 |
| scherand | benji: no, if i understand the question correctly | 17:51 |
| benji | ok, give it its own interface, and then register a new view for that interface with the name "index.html" | 17:52 |
| scherand | it is an sqlobjectcontainer | 17:52 |
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| scherand | benji: and then i do something similar to what happens in zope.app.container.browser? | 17:54 |
| benji | if you want all sqlobjectcontainer's to have your new view, you can register it for any interface that is specific to sqlobjectcontainer (I'd bet there's at least one) | 17:55 |
| benji | right (but probably much simpler) | 17:55 |
| scherand | yes, there is - surprise - ISQLObjectContainer | 17:55 |
| scherand | ok, i think i know what you mean. thanks! | 17:56 |
| benji | np | 17:57 |
| scherand | btw: what is that link on the left side of the ZMI to add a ZPT-Page good for? i mean, i have all ZPT-stuff in my browser-directory, right? so why/when do i need to add a ZPT through the ZMI? | 17:59 |
| scherand | hope this is not too much of a newbie question :( | 18:00 |
| benji | you'll probably never use that, scherand | 18:00 |
| benji | remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people :) | 18:01 |
| benji | the TTW (through the web) templates are mostly just left-over from when Zope 3 was young; it really should not be included by default | 18:02 |
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| scherand | benji: good saying. but you probably know what happens if you ask stupid people a question they think is stupid... but obviously people here are not stupid at all! thanks again, i'll just not look at this link then :) | 18:03 |
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| benji | :) | 18:04 |
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| *** philiKON changes topic to "logs available at http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs/ || paste code examples into http://zope3.pastebin.com/ or http://paste.plone.org/ || Zope 3.3.0 is out || bugs live at http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev || FAQ at http://kpug.zwiki.org/Zope3Faq" | 18:29 | |
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| philiKON | Zope 3.3.0 released! | 18:32 |
| ErikRose | Woot! | 18:33 |
| ignas | ouch | 18:34 |
| philiKON | ouch? | 18:34 |
| ErikRose | Did anything change since rc1? | 18:34 |
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| philiKON | nope | 18:34 |
| ignas | i think one bugfix schooltool relies on got commited to trunk not 3.3 branch | 18:34 |
| philiKON | ignas, well, the 3.3.0 tag had long been made | 18:35 |
| philiKON | 2,3 days | 18:35 |
| philiKON | no changes since rc1 anyways | 18:35 |
| philiKON | otherwise we would have had to create rc2 | 18:35 |
| regebro | philiKON: Yay! | 18:35 |
| ignas | philiKON: i should have gotten Zope3 commit rights :/ | 18:36 |
| philiKON | ignas, then you should've made the zope 3.3 release manager as well, because i sure ddn't want another rc :) | 18:36 |
| ignas | well, it just went so that i had to bug a commiter to do it and he commited the fix into trunk | 18:37 |
| ignas | a few weeks ago | 18:37 |
| ignas | a couple of weeks i think | 18:37 |
| ignas | and all i had to do was to fax the commiters agreement | 18:37 |
| philiKON | well, that's what you get from not following a decent process | 18:38 |
| philiKON | things should be fixed on 3.2 first | 18:38 |
| philiKON | then on 3.3, then trunk | 18:38 |
| philiKON | imo it's insane to do bugfixes on the trunk | 18:38 |
| philiKON | the trunk doesn't need urgent fixing. whatever is in production does | 18:38 |
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| ignas | my fault, i will have a failing functional test, but at least the product works without the fix | 18:40 |
| * philiKON kicks the cheeseshop a bit | 18:41 | |
| philiKON | worst python web app ever | 18:41 |
| ignas | :) | 18:41 |
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| ErikRose | Does anybody know what the status of fssync/zsync is? | 19:49 |
| mgedmin | abandoned many years ago, as far as I know | 19:49 |
| ErikRose | That's too bad. Did the maintainer get bored with it, or did someone come up with a better idea? | 19:50 |
| mgedmin | more important tasks took priority | 19:50 |
| ErikRose | Ah. | 19:50 |
| mgedmin | and nobody had the time to give love to fssync | 19:50 |
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| ErikRose | Hmm, I wonder at what point the old fssync packages are being stripped out of the release. They're still present in both the release branch and the release tag. | 19:54 |
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| ErikRose | I'm following the first "Hello, world" in the Zope 3 book, but I'm having no luck. Can anybody see what's wrong with this picture? http://paste.lisp.org/display/26919 | 20:49 |
| benji | what error do you get, ErikRose | 20:49 |
| ErikRose | That's a reduction. Originally, it actually tried doing some TALES to print the page title. | 20:49 |
| ErikRose | An excellent question. :-) Compilation failed | 20:50 |
| ErikRose | HTMLParser.HTMLParseError: malformed start tag, at line 3, column 14 | 20:50 |
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| benji | strange... it looks good to me (except that content can't be given an empty string, try "string: hello world" instead) | 20:52 |
| ErikRose | Same deal. | 20:52 |
| ErikRose | Okay, I started a fresh ZPT, and that one works. Weird, and never mind. :-/ | 20:52 |
| ErikRose | How do I tell what type a ZMI-dwelling object is? Maybe it wasn't a ZPT Page like it was supposed to be. | 20:53 |
| benji | ErikRose: if you have xxd do cat bad_template | xxd | 20:53 |
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| benji | I wonder if the character after "span" isn't really a space | 20:53 |
| ErikRose | Let's see... | 20:53 |
| ErikRose | Haha! | 20:54 |
| ErikRose | Yes, that's the case. | 20:54 |
| * ErikRose loves copy and paste from browsers. | 20:54 | |
| ErikRose | It was an LF. | 20:54 |
| benji | for the type question: you can use the introspector (it should show up as a tab in the ZMI) | 20:54 |
| ErikRose | Not a LF; a chr(160), whatever that is. | 20:55 |
| ErikRose | Hmm, does it say "Introspector" on it? | 20:55 |
| benji | 160 is > 127, so it's whatever the current charset wants to interpret it as | 20:56 |
| ErikRose | Exactly. | 20:56 |
| ErikRose | I've got no Introspector. Did it move in 3.3? | 20:58 |
| benji | dev mode is probably off (IIRC it's off by default now). Look in zope.conf to see how to turn it on. | 21:00 |
| ErikRose | Oh ho. That would be it. Thx! | 21:00 |
| mgedmin | 160 is nonbreaking space in some charsets, fwiw | 21:07 |
| ErikRose | Nifty. | 21:07 |
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| d2m | philiKON: what is meant with "worldcookery 2.0" ? will there be new files to download ? | 22:33 |
| philiKON | *mystic* noooobody knows | 22:33 |
| philiKON | d2m, rumors have it there's a new edition of the book coming out... | 22:34 |
| d2m | philiKON: so whats the sense of that entry ? http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/worldcookery/2.0 | 22:34 |
| philiKON | wait and see :) | 22:35 |
| * d2m waits | 22:37 | |
| philiKON | d2m, ok, be patient :) | 22:38 |
| d2m | btw, announcing Zope3.3.0 (http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/Zope%203/3.3.0) without a download link is not very useful too | 22:41 |
| philiKON | sigh | 22:42 |
| philiKON | yeah | 22:42 |
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| philiKON | cheeseshop deosn't really know download url from homepage | 22:42 |
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| d2m | philiKON: http://docs.python.org/dist/meta-data.html | 22:46 |
| philiKON | hmmm | 22:46 |
| philiKON | d2m, got a cheeseshop login? | 22:46 |
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| febb | hi all | 22:54 |
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| d2m | philiKON: didn't want to turn you away - i've a cheeseshop login | 23:57 |
| philiKON | i'll give you admin rights, you can chnage the pkg metadata :) | 23:57 |
| philiKON | what's your login name? | 23:57 |
| d2m | d2m | 23:57 |
| philiKON | done | 23:57 |
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