IRC log of #zope3-dev for Wednesday, 2006-09-27

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philiKONdlk, old news ;)09:33
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dlkyeah, yeah, but I just got in to work ;)09:36
dlki think it puts things into perspective09:36
philiKONwhich things?09:37
dlkwrt being able to criticize w/o being treated like anit-zope09:37
philiKONsure, pje has good point09:37
philiKONsure, pje has good points09:37
dlkanti. zope is ubercool but it could get better. At least that is my point of view.09:38
philiKONwe don't forbid criticism09:38
philiKONwe just don't like false implications09:38
dlknah, but it is not really encouraged when it comes.09:38
philiKONnobody *likes* criticism09:39
philiKONbut i think we've very fair with valid criticism09:39
dlkalso, there is a lack of non-core development perception; it was true of Zope2 and it is also true of zope3.09:39
dlkyeah, but who gets to decide what is valid criticism.09:39
philiKONeveryone does09:40
dlkwell, I was quite disasspointed at the reaction to jm's blog. I don't think it was totally out of line.09:40
dlkdisappointed, even :_)09:41
philiKONi think the way he was implying things was out of line. it shadows some valid points he had (which martijn pointed out, btw!)09:41
dlkanyway, I am starting to realize that some of more important issues are social and "attituderial" rather than technical09:42
romanofskimoin :)09:42
dlkwell, I don't think he was implying anything in particular. However, it is a useful tactic to neutralize criticism by claiming it "implies" stuff and then draw attention away from the actual meat of the criticism...09:43
philiKONof course, it's not black and white09:44
philiKONeveryone may read the text differently09:44
philiKONbut incidentally many seem to agree with martijn09:44
philiKONmany who've criticized the zope community themselves before09:44
dlkI am not claiming that it was done intentionally, but the "implications" perceived are extremely subjective; in effect, the remaining point of discussion is that someone "implied" things, not what those things were.09:45
dlkstill, i think that all 10 points are valid.09:45
philiKONi disagree (with your earlier sentence). following-up blogposts have been "attacking" some of the actual points09:46
philiKONincluding mine about deprecation09:46
philiKONi think carlos de la guardia did another one, martin aspeli too09:47
dlkhm... yes, come to think of it you are probably right...09:47
* dlk looks around09:47
philiKONdlk, don't expect much agreement though ;)09:48
dlkphiliKON: I never do, but I hope that we sometime will agree on how to treat our valued customers/users/non-core developers. I am speaking in a very broad sense here, and not implying that they are overly mistreated now.09:49
philiKONdunno what there is to agree on09:50
philiKONeveryone has different clients09:50
philiKONdifferent views, different products09:50
philiKONi think the whole self-criticism thing is unfair09:50
dlkheh... ok.09:50
philiKONrecently we've been reflecting a lot09:50
philiKONand especially martijn deserves a lot of credit for this09:50
philiKONsaying that zope doesn't reflect upon RoR etc. is just plain polemic09:51
dlkI think that it is important to get the broader picture when someone critizies-09:51
philiKONuh, sure09:52
dlkpicking apart the actual examples does not lead to understanding of why someone critizise09:52
philiKONwell, then s/he has done a bad job with the criticism09:53
philiKONthe big picture is part of the criticism09:53
dlkso, instead of thinking "i don't like what is implied" or "the RoR is comparison is out of line", etc, we should start looking at what lies behind the criticism.09:53
dlkoh, come on philiKON; you shoudl know better than saying a thing like that.09:53
dlkwe should be mature enough to be able to handle badly worded criticism as well.09:54
dlkwe cannot dismiss any critic that is not able to express him-/herself in a way that we like.09:55
philiKONyou make it sound we want the critic to say what we want09:55
dlkI think that is the impression i get from the reactions.09:55
philiKONall i mean is:09:56
Aistedidn't I see this same disscussion here a few days ago?09:56
dlkand reactions not just to this nuxeo-stuff, but in general, on th elist, etc.09:56
philiKONyou can't expect us to accept criticism that's badly worded and then say "nonono, you're getting this wrong, look at the big picture"09:56
philiKONbasically, "it's your fault that you don't get the criticism"09:56
dlkof course I can. That is the proper way of handling thing.09:57
theunigood morning Aiste09:57
philiKONdlk, then we disagree :)09:57
Aistemorning theuni09:57
dlkYes, it is always like that. When my customers are unhappy with me, I need to look not at what they actually say, in words, but what lead them to give mw the criticism in the first place.09:58
dlklo Aiste.09:58
theunidlk: I think this is something that is very developer-like, because Zope is our child/project/pony and people tend to be very protective of them.09:59
philiKONdlk, i'll be happy to deal with criticism, but i won't try and guess what's meant. we're all consenting adults, if somebody's implying a whole lot of stuff, then i treat this as a lot of implications. i think most people do09:59
dlkI am always never happy with what they say; they are students, and express themselves that way "you bunch of degenerate monkeys - why does feature X don't work, you sucky programmers. My baby sister could do it better than you, and she 3 years old."09:59
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theuniphiliKON: obviously you can treat them as implications, but that doesn't invalidate what he implies automatically. It's input. Everybody should be happy to get any form of input.09:59
theuniOtherwise you yourself say (imply?) that you have enough input and you can choose to listen to whatever you like.10:00
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philiKONof course i can, but that's obviously not a good solution10:00
dlktheuni: yes, I know, I am in that position myself. I have had to defend zope ever since I chose it 6 years ago, so I understand. Not only that, I find that I have a personal, touchy-feely attachment to zope and python. Very embarrasing, but there it is :-)10:00
philiKONi do listen to implications, too10:00
philiKONi've written a implication-less response to one of JMO's posts10:01
philiKONit's not all black'n'white10:01
philiKONtheuni, but you can surely say that there's desctructive criticism and constructive one10:01
philiKONand something in between10:01
philiKONwe should listen to everything, but can't be blamed if we don't "get the big picture" because somebody a) is implying lots of things and b) is not very constructive10:02
dlkphiliKON: yes, but we need to accept all forms of criticism and extract the core of the matter from them. No just dismiss them10:02
philiKONwe did that10:02
philiKON(in jmo's case)10:02
philiKONso i don't see your problem :)10:02
* philiKON needs to get to work10:03
dlkI dunno, my experience over the years is that criticism often comes for a very specific reason, the trouble is finding it.10:03
philiKONsure, but that's a different point10:03
theuniphiliKON: i think if we really would listen, then we wouldn't be discussing meta-discussions.10:04
dlkand not over-reacting to it by just dismissing, or diminishing it. I my example above, there obviously is some problem with feature X that we need to look into.10:04
dlktheuni: :)10:04
dlkphiliKON: I am not sure that it is a different point.10:04
philiKONtheuni, we're a volunteer community with scarce resources. having a meta discussion seems strange, but it's necessary. we can't afford being side stepped by desctructive rants10:04
dlkphiliKON: are you implying that jm's blog was a destructuve rant?10:05
dlkor are you speaking in general terms?10:05
philiKONin general terms10:06
philiKONwe were just talking about accepting all kinds of criticism10:06
philiKONand i'm saying that desctructive rants would take our focus away10:06
dlkif so, then you will need to get accustomed to the fact that when someone works up energy enough to actually word their criticism, it will always be... let's say "passinate and expressive".10:06
dlkphiliKON: so let's not get distracted by the tone of the criticism.10:07
philiKONno, but let's also not spend too much time trying to figure out the things that people are implying10:07
dlkits that "easy" - i know it is hard, but it is not very complicated.10:07
dlkuh... so you are saying that all the inital discussion about implications etc was a mistake?10:08
theuniphiliKON: so we avoid being side-stepped by destructive rants by side-stepping and having meta-discussions? :)10:08
philiKONtheuni, sigh, you'd rather not have any discussions then. fine.10:09
dlkhehe... maybe we shold work for a while and come back to this later if there is something left to discuss...10:09
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scherandHi, I am (still :)) in trouble with sqlos. I try to adapt the simplePerson example to my needs (existing database, mainly). Now I get a "Cannot find a name" Error when I try to add a person. I think that this has to do with my object not providing ISQLObject. But simplePerson does not provide it either but adding simplePersons works... Any hint?10:42
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dlkphiliKON: are there still some seats left for the z3 training in Copenhagen?10:57
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philiKONdlk, nope11:07
philiKONyou're about 3 months too late :/11:07
dlkyeah, I know :)11:07
dlkI talked to my boss about before summer, and just now realised it is next week.11:08
dlkare there any more courses planned this year?11:08
philiKONno, but possibly beginning of next year11:10
philiKONdlk, better sign up soon, we have a huge waiting list :)11:10
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dlkheh... Ok.11:12
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scherandmy problem seems to be in another place. i am having trouble with unicode characters now. never mind.11:43
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scherandwhere can i find a list of field types contained in zope.schema?11:56
philiKONimport zope.schema11:58
philiKONscherand, or my book :)11:58
scherandi have your book right in front of me (page 50), but it says: this list does not aim to be complete11:59
philiKONtheuni, ping12:03
philiKONscherand, yeah, but it almost is :)12:04
theuniphiliKON: pong12:04
philiKONtheuni, any luck on the windoze releae?12:04
scherandphiliKON: btw: your book rocks!12:05
philiKONthanks, that's always appreciated :)12:05
philiKONscherand, you should see the 2nd edition in a couple of months :)12:05
dlkphiliKON: is it preorderable yet?12:05
philiKONdlk, i'm trying ot find that out. already wrote an email yesterday to springer12:06
theuniphiliKON: me? i didn't do anything. I only said I have a windoze machine that I could borrow.12:06
philiKONdlk, according to their website it is12:06
dlkand philiKON: for the record I think you rock too :)12:06
philiKONtheuni, i thought you had VC 2003 and all that12:06
philiKONdlk, thanks :)12:06
philiKONdlk, btw, i figured out what we did wrong earlier12:06
theuniphiliKON: i do, but i don't have time12:06
philiKONtheuni, ok, never mind then12:07
theunii can give out VNC access or something if somebody wants to give it a shot12:07
* philiKON creates an ambush for ChrisW12:07
baijumphiliKON, what about source only release now, and Windows later ?12:10
* baijum don't use Windows12:10
philiKONbaijum, yeah, but some do12:11
theuniand the releases must be tested and need to be the same.12:16
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romanofskihowdy oferw14:13
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oferwromanofski: ok and you?14:15
romanofskithanks fine14:15
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oferwromanofski: hope that you eat something since our last talk :)14:16
romanofskieating? whats that? *G14:16
romanofskiyeah - sure14:17
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scheranddear zope-wizards: could you help me with a container-question (i am making progress, you see :))? what is the zope-way to change the view someone gets when "opening" a container? now i get a table listing all the items in the container. let's say i want this to be a bullet-list instead. or even a drop-down listing all objects where one can be chosen...17:48
scherandbtw: by someone i mean someone only having zope.View permissions17:49
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benjischerand: is the container a generic container, or one you wrote?17:50
scherandone "i" wrote. it contains sqlos-objects.17:50
benjiand it has its own interface?  (i.e., the interface is specific to that content type?)17:51
scherandi tried do replace index.html with a page-template in the browser-directory, but this does not seem to be the way to go..17:51
scherandbenji: no, if i understand the question correctly17:51
benjiok, give it its own interface, and then register a new view for that interface with the name "index.html"17:52
scherandit is an sqlobjectcontainer17:52
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scherandbenji: and then i do something similar to what happens in
benjiif you want all sqlobjectcontainer's to have your new view, you can register it for any interface that is specific to sqlobjectcontainer (I'd bet there's at least one)17:55
benjiright (but probably much simpler)17:55
scherandyes, there is - surprise - ISQLObjectContainer17:55
scherandok, i think i know what you mean. thanks!17:56
scherandbtw: what is that link on the left side of the ZMI to add a ZPT-Page good for? i mean, i have all ZPT-stuff in my browser-directory, right? so why/when do i need to add a ZPT through the ZMI?17:59
scherandhope this is not too much of a newbie question :(18:00
benjiyou'll probably never use that, scherand18:00
benjiremember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people  :)18:01
benjithe TTW (through the web) templates are mostly just left-over from when Zope 3 was young; it really should not be included by default18:02
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scherandbenji: good saying. but you probably know what happens if you ask stupid people a question they think is stupid... but obviously people here are not stupid at all! thanks again, i'll just not look at this link then :)18:03
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*** philiKON changes topic to "logs available at || paste code examples into or || Zope 3.3.0 is out || bugs live at || FAQ at"18:29
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philiKONZope 3.3.0 released!18:32
ErikRoseDid anything change since rc1?18:34
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ignasi think one bugfix schooltool relies on got commited to trunk not 3.3 branch18:34
philiKONignas, well, the 3.3.0 tag had long been made18:35
philiKON2,3 days18:35
philiKONno changes since rc1 anyways18:35
philiKONotherwise we would have had to create rc218:35
regebrophiliKON: Yay!18:35
ignasphiliKON: i should have gotten Zope3 commit rights :/18:36
philiKONignas, then you should've made the zope 3.3 release manager as well, because i sure ddn't want another rc :)18:36
ignaswell, it just went so that i had to bug a commiter to do it and he commited the fix into trunk18:37
ignasa few weeks ago18:37
ignasa couple of weeks i think18:37
ignasand all i had to do was to fax the commiters agreement18:37
philiKONwell, that's what you get from not following a decent process18:38
philiKONthings should be fixed on 3.2 first18:38
philiKONthen on 3.3, then trunk18:38
philiKONimo it's insane to do bugfixes on the trunk18:38
philiKONthe trunk doesn't need urgent fixing. whatever is in production does18:38
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ignasmy fault, i will have a failing functional test, but at least the product works without the fix18:40
* philiKON kicks the cheeseshop a bit18:41
philiKONworst python web app ever18:41
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ErikRoseDoes anybody know what the status of fssync/zsync is?19:49
mgedminabandoned many years ago, as far as I know19:49
ErikRoseThat's too bad. Did the maintainer get bored with it, or did someone come up with a better idea?19:50
mgedminmore important tasks took priority19:50
mgedminand nobody had the time to give love to fssync19:50
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ErikRoseHmm, I wonder at what point the old fssync packages are being stripped out of the release. They're still present in both the release branch and the release tag.19:54
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ErikRoseI'm following the first "Hello, world" in the Zope 3 book, but I'm having no luck. Can anybody see what's wrong with this picture?
benjiwhat error do you get, ErikRose20:49
ErikRoseThat's a reduction. Originally, it actually tried doing some TALES to print the page title.20:49
ErikRoseAn excellent question. :-) Compilation failed20:50
ErikRoseHTMLParser.HTMLParseError: malformed start tag, at line 3, column 1420:50
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benjistrange... it looks good to me (except that content can't be given an empty string, try "string: hello world" instead)20:52
ErikRoseSame deal.20:52
ErikRoseOkay, I started a fresh ZPT, and that one works. Weird, and never mind. :-/20:52
ErikRoseHow do I tell what type a ZMI-dwelling object is? Maybe it wasn't a ZPT Page like it was supposed to be.20:53
benjiErikRose: if you have xxd do  cat bad_template | xxd20:53
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benjiI wonder if the character after "span" isn't really a space20:53
ErikRoseLet's see...20:53
ErikRoseYes, that's the case.20:54
* ErikRose loves copy and paste from browsers.20:54
ErikRoseIt was an LF.20:54
benjifor the type question: you can use the introspector (it should show up as a tab in the ZMI)20:54
ErikRoseNot a LF; a chr(160), whatever that is.20:55
ErikRoseHmm, does it say "Introspector" on it?20:55
benji160 is > 127, so it's whatever the current charset wants to interpret it as20:56
ErikRoseI've got no Introspector. Did it move in 3.3?20:58
benjidev mode is probably off (IIRC it's off by default now). Look in zope.conf to see how to turn it on.21:00
ErikRoseOh ho. That would be it. Thx!21:00
mgedmin160 is nonbreaking space in some charsets, fwiw21:07
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d2mphiliKON: what is meant with "worldcookery 2.0" ? will there be new files to download ?22:33
philiKON*mystic* noooobody knows22:33
philiKONd2m, rumors have it there's a new edition of the book coming out...22:34
d2mphiliKON: so whats the sense of that entry ?
philiKONwait and see :)22:35
* d2m waits22:37
philiKONd2m, ok, be patient :)22:38
d2mbtw, announcing Zope3.3.0 ( without a download link is not very useful too22:41
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philiKONcheeseshop deosn't really know download url from homepage22:42
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philiKONd2m, got a cheeseshop login?22:46
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febbhi all22:54
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d2mphiliKON: didn't want to turn you away - i've a cheeseshop login23:57
philiKONi'll give you admin rights, you can chnage the pkg metadata :)23:57
philiKONwhat's your login name?23:57

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