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| radix | so I've seen that other people have had this problem where on startup they get an "Unknown directive" ... "role" error, but no solutions. I'm getting that with a fresh checkout; build_ext; cp sample_principals.zcml principals.zcml; z3.py. | 00:20 |
|---|---|---|
| radix | (the error occurs parsing securitypolicy.zcml) | 00:21 |
| philiKON | which version of zope 3? | 00:22 |
| philiKON | using a checkout i presuem? | 00:22 |
| radix | trunk | 00:22 |
| radix | yep | 00:22 |
| radix | I just did a fresh checkout and build_ext to make sure I did nothing strange to my checkout | 00:22 |
| philiKON | hmm, role shouldn't occur in principals.zcml | 00:22 |
| radix | it's not in principals.zcml, it's in securitypolicy.zcml | 00:23 |
| philiKON | <role /> is securitypolicy-specific | 00:23 |
| philiKON | right | 00:23 |
| philiKON | did you disable zope's default security policy? | 00:23 |
| radix | I didn't do anything beyond the commands above. | 00:23 |
| philiKON | ok, lemme check | 00:23 |
| * philiKON svn ups | 00:23 | |
| philiKON | so, you just checked out the trunk, copied sample_principals.zcml to principals.zcml and started zope, yes? | 00:24 |
| radix | to be more specific, I did "svn checkout <...>; cd Zope3; python setup.py build_ext -i; cp sample_principals.zcml principals.zcml; python z3.py" | 00:24 |
| radix | yep. | 00:24 |
| radix | and the build_ext, that is.. | 00:24 |
| radix | Apparently this happened in 2005, as well: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-users/2005-November/001458.html | 00:25 |
| philiKON | ah | 00:25 |
| philiKON | build_ext isn't enough | 00:25 |
| philiKON | you also need install_data | 00:26 |
| philiKON | just say "make" | 00:26 |
| philiKON | this is documented in README.txt | 00:26 |
| philiKON | (the full command rather than the "make" shortcut, but still, it's documented) | 00:26 |
| radix | oh, ok. | 00:26 |
| philiKON | actually, even "make" is documented :) | 00:26 |
| radix | ok, stupid me. thanks for the help :) | 00:27 |
| philiKON | np | 00:27 |
| philiKON | :) | 00:27 |
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| markup_ | is zcml:condition documented in apidocs somewhere? | 01:59 |
| philiKON | not sure | 01:59 |
| philiKON | i know it's documenetd in my new book :/ | 01:59 |
| markup_ | looking forward to it :) | 01:59 |
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| febb | hola ! hi all ! | 02:10 |
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| febb | Hello there !... anyone awake ? | 06:27 |
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| * baijum cann't see README.txt (Installation notes) and Licence text here: http://www.zope.org/Products/Zope3/3.3.0 | 07:46 | |
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| febb | hi philiKON, how are you? | 09:43 |
| philiKON | good, thank you | 09:43 |
| febb | great. ! glad to hear. how you did with your book ? | 09:43 |
| philiKON | it's finished :) | 09:45 |
| febb | that is great. :) that's the one we'll be getting on the course (in Copenhagen next week), right? | 09:45 |
| romanofski | moin | 09:46 |
| febb | hi romanosfski | 09:46 |
| philiKON | febb, yes, well, it's not printed yet | 09:46 |
| philiKON | but you'll be getting a voucher | 09:46 |
| febb | yeah, I know...thats the reason of the vouchers. | 09:47 |
| febb | yeah. | 09:47 |
| febb | It is based on Zope-3.3.0 ? the book I mean ? | 09:47 |
| philiKON | yes | 09:47 |
| febb | cool. I just dloaded it and installed it...everything went fine. It no loger has all the bugs after the "make check". | 09:47 |
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| febb | I am only fighting with some adapter for postgresql for Zope 3.3.0 the one on zope.org add on packages doesn't work... :( | 09:48 |
| philiKON | svn | 09:48 |
| febb | havn't tried from svn .... | 09:49 |
| febb | will do tomorrow. just before packing and leaving to CPH... ! | 09:49 |
| philiKON | heh, cool | 09:49 |
| philiKON | see you | 09:49 |
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| febb | oh..ok see ya. ! :) | 09:50 |
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| harobed | philiKON: is your next book release, there are a Catalog chapiter ? | 11:21 |
| philiKON | yes | 11:21 |
| harobed | :) | 11:21 |
| harobed | and you speak about my last question "Re: are you one example to add a content component in root ZODB folder in interactive command ?" | 11:22 |
| harobed | thanks for your example | 11:23 |
| harobed | "root" is global variable ? | 11:23 |
| philiKON | yes | 11:23 |
| harobed | always accessible ? | 11:23 |
| philiKON | yes | 11:23 |
| philiKON | in debugzope | 11:23 |
| harobed | ok, it's simple | 11:23 |
| philiKON | of course | 11:23 |
| philiKON | RTFM containers | 11:23 |
| harobed | but this information is hard to found I thinks | 11:24 |
| harobed | ok | 11:24 |
| harobed | containers chapiter ? | 11:24 |
| philiKON | of course | 11:24 |
| philiKON | baijum, ping | 11:27 |
| philiKON | theuni, the http put thing is a bugfix? | 11:30 |
| theuni | arguably a "jein" | 11:31 |
| baijum | philiKON, pong | 11:31 |
| harobed | philiKON: I search "root" from 233 page to 253 | 11:31 |
| harobed | I don't see it :( | 11:31 |
| philiKON | baijum, how did you compile http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/Zope32Maintainance ? | 11:31 |
| philiKON | harobed, of course not | 11:31 |
| philiKON | harobed, the hcapter is about containers | 11:31 |
| philiKON | root is a container | 11:31 |
| philiKON | figure out the rest | 11:31 |
| philiKON | theuni, please elaborate | 11:31 |
| theuni | sec. we're checking that. | 11:32 |
| baijum | philiKON, you mean why I created it? | 11:32 |
| philiKON | no | 11:32 |
| philiKON | HOW? | 11:32 |
| philiKON | where did you get this list | 11:33 |
| baijum | from collector | 11:33 |
| philiKON | yes. how? | 11:33 |
| philiKON | what did you do | 11:33 |
| baijum | only bugs | 11:33 |
| baijum | no issue/features | 11:33 |
| harobed | philiKON: ok, in which chapiter then ? | 11:33 |
| philiKON | harobed, sigh. | 11:33 |
| philiKON | harobed, read what i said above | 11:33 |
| philiKON | baijum, aha | 11:34 |
| philiKON | baijum, you're still not telling me what you did | 11:34 |
| philiKON | doing involves a verb | 11:34 |
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| baijum | just visted, http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev and took all bugs | 11:35 |
| theuni | philiKON: it's a bugfix. we're porting it to 3.3 and 3.2 now. | 11:35 |
| philiKON | theuni, thanks | 11:35 |
| theuni | np | 11:35 |
| philiKON | baijum, sigh, ok | 11:35 |
| philiKON | baijum, thanks | 11:35 |
| philiKON | baijum, this list sin't complete yet | 11:35 |
| philiKON | because bugs were fixed on the 3.3 branch but never backported to 3.2 | 11:35 |
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| baijum | how can we find those? | 11:36 |
| philiKON | manually | 11:37 |
| baijum | ok :) | 11:37 |
| philiKON | :((( | 11:37 |
| philiKON | __mac__, what's the status on http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/716 ? | 11:43 |
| theuni | __mac__ isn't there. please record a message after the *beeeeep* | 11:44 |
| philiKON | hi __mac__, it's me, philipp | 11:46 |
| philiKON | listen, i was wondering | 11:46 |
| philiKON | what's the status on http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/716 ? | 11:46 |
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| philiKON | my number is philikon@philikon.de | 11:46 |
| philiKON | please call me back | 11:46 |
| philiKON | thanks | 11:46 |
| * philiKON hangs up | 11:46 | |
| philiKON | hi strichter | 11:46 |
| philiKON | theuni, :) | 11:48 |
| theuni | ;) | 11:49 |
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| srichter | philiKON: hi | 11:50 |
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| theuni | mister pieters! | 11:53 |
| harobed | philiKON: if I've a persistent object instance, if I don't append it in root or other subfolder. next if I exit interactive command, how can I fetch this object ? | 12:03 |
| philiKON | you can't | 12:03 |
| harobed | ok | 12:03 |
| philiKON | you need to store it somewhere | 12:03 |
| philiKON | otherwise it won't be saved | 12:03 |
| harobed | ok thanks, I understand | 12:04 |
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| philiKON | baijum, i think a list liike the Zope32Maintainance page is a bad idea | 12:06 |
| philiKON | if it's just a 1:1 copy from the collector info | 12:06 |
| philiKON | the collector info is updated, Zope32Maintainance may not | 12:06 |
| philiKON | i'm going to get rid of the bug listing there | 12:06 |
| baijum | philiKON: ok | 12:07 |
| baijum | philiKON, why no tag for http://svn.zope.org/zpkgtools/tags/ for Zope 3.2 release, the trunk is changed to use latest Python? | 12:11 |
| philiKON | huh??? | 12:11 |
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| baijum | use zpkgtools trunk for new 3.2.2 release ? | 12:12 |
| philiKON | yes | 12:14 |
| baijum | so, marking this as fixed http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/709 | 12:17 |
| philiKON | yes | 12:18 |
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| baijum | I was trying to back port http://svn.zope.org/?view=rev&rev=70380 to 3.2 branch | 12:40 |
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| baijum | but there is no zope.lifecyclevent | 12:40 |
| baijum | what is equivalent of `zope.lifecycleevent` in 3.2 ? | 12:41 |
| philiKON | zope.app.event.objectevent | 12:42 |
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| philiKON | moin faassen | 13:01 |
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| scherand | can anybody tell me what happens to existing objects in the zodb when i change their implementation by adding, or more interestingly, removing attributes? are they just empty (if they are additions) or are they deleted (if i remove them)? or are they kept for those objects that once had them an will "reappear" if i re-add the attribute? | 15:37 |
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| scherand | ups, by "they" i mean the attributes | 15:37 |
| philiKON | that depends on whether the attributes are class level or instance level | 15:42 |
| philiKON | instance level attriubtes will be persisted | 15:42 |
| faassen | basically the rule is that the persistent objects don't change at all when you change its implementation. | 15:42 |
| philiKON | right | 15:42 |
| philiKON | the pickles don't change | 15:42 |
| faassen | if you have class-level attributes, then that's not actually pickled at all. | 15:43 |
| faassen | the code changes, not the content. | 15:43 |
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| faassen | scherand: there is a way to evolve objects, look at zope.app.generations | 15:44 |
| faassen | that's a framework for changing them. | 15:44 |
| faassen | beware that changing objects and evolving a database is not for the faint of heart, unfortunately. | 15:44 |
| faassen | though simple cases are simple enough. | 15:44 |
| philiKON | hehe | 15:44 |
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| benji | Zope requires courage in it's devotees! | 15:45 |
| scherand | :) | 15:46 |
| scherand | sounds like one should best use the strategy i am very bad at: think first, then code... | 15:47 |
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| regebro | benji: This gets more and more like a sect every year. :-) | 15:51 |
| benji | heh :) | 15:51 |
| regebro | scherand: I've found that test-driven programming lets me code first and think later. | 15:52 |
| regebro | But you will always end up with situations where you need to change things that exists in ZODB. | 15:52 |
| regebro | I've found it's usually not very difficult. zope.app.generations is, as I understand it, mostly for the difficult cases. | 15:53 |
| benji | right, you can often get away with some defensive coding instead of using generations | 15:53 |
| philiKON | right | 15:54 |
| * philiKON notes that his new book will cover generations | 15:54 | |
| philiKON | s/will cover/covers/ | 15:54 |
| philiKON | :) | 15:54 |
| * benji wonders when philiKON's new edition will be out | 15:54 | |
| * philiKON wonders the same thing | 15:54 | |
| * benji also wonders if it covers 3.2 or 3.3 | 15:54 | |
| philiKON | 3.3 | 15:54 |
| benji | cool | 15:55 |
| philiKON | yup | 15:55 |
| philiKON | as said, final manuscript was submitted monday morning | 15:55 |
| dlk | argh stupid oralce installer | 15:55 |
| dlk | oops, sorry wrong window | 15:55 |
| faassen | dlk: hey, no more criticizing Oracle! :) | 15:55 |
| benji | but it /is/ stupid | 15:56 |
| benji | :) | 15:56 |
| faassen | hey! | 15:56 |
| faassen | oh, wait, I'm not with Oracle. | 15:56 |
| faassen | yeah. | 15:56 |
| * faassen grins. | 15:56 | |
| faassen | I have nothing to do with Oracle and don't want to have much to do with them either. | 15:56 |
| dlk | soyy, i did not mean to imply dislike for oracle :-) | 15:56 |
| dlk | only their installers :) | 15:56 |
| faassen | dlk: I'm just being silly, referring back to our previous discussion. :) | 15:57 |
| dlk | I know :) | 15:57 |
| regebro | OK, so the book is here for x-mas? :-) | 15:57 |
| benji | contrast that with Microsoft software, usually the installer is the best part | 15:57 |
| dlk | cab we buy the pdf online somewhere ? :-) | 15:57 |
| dlk | benji: actually, I like MS hardware best. It is really good. | 15:58 |
| benji | :) | 15:58 |
| benji | I would really like a PDF version too | 15:59 |
| regebro | dlk: Seen the new experimental MS-soapmouse? I want one. | 16:05 |
| dlk | no, not et. | 16:05 |
| dlk | yet, even | 16:05 |
| regebro | dlk: http://www.patrickbaudisch.com/projects/soap/index.html | 16:06 |
| dlk | neato :) | 16:07 |
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| * benji is really interested in alternate input devices | 16:13 | |
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| flox | how i can get the local site, when i hv a context? | 16:39 |
| flox | getSiteManager().__parent__ ??? | 16:41 |
| benji | flox: zope.app.component.hooks.getSite | 16:42 |
| philiKON | yup | 16:44 |
| flox | thanks benji | 16:45 |
| benji | glad to help | 16:45 |
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| * flox is looking for a way to list all Principals | 17:24 | |
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| benji | flox: if you're using the PAU, look it up (it's registered as the zope.app.security.interfaces.IAuthentication utility) and then get the set of users you want to enumerate (e.g., pau['my_users']) | 17:30 |
| flox | benji: it gives me <zope.app.authentication.principalfolder.PrincipalFolder object at 0x0323E5B0> | 17:31 |
| flox | then i get ".items()' ? | 17:31 |
| benji | that should work | 17:31 |
| benji | actually .values() is probably what you want | 17:32 |
| benji | (I doubt you care about the IDs of the objects) | 17:32 |
| philiKON | flox, i suggesting using the Principal source | 17:32 |
| flox | i was looking for some kind of "pau.getPrincipals()" | 17:33 |
| flox | philiKON: how i extract the principals from ps=PrincipalSource() ? | 17:33 |
| benji | yeah, I had forgotten about it, philiKON | 17:33 |
| philiKON | flox, not princnipalSource() | 17:34 |
| philiKON | it's a source | 17:34 |
| philiKON | as in vocabularies | 17:34 |
| philiKON | grep for it | 17:34 |
| philiKON | you use it like a vocuablary | 17:34 |
| flox | philiKON: i hv to read again the chapter on Vocabs | 17:34 |
| flox | philiKON: i need to loop on principals, to work on their annotations | 17:35 |
| philiKON | yes, use the principal source for that | 17:36 |
| philiKON | from zope.app.security.vocacbulary import PrincipalSource | 17:36 |
| flox | for p in PrincipalSource() does not work... | 17:37 |
| flox | ok, i open the book | 17:37 |
| philiKON | the book ain't got it | 17:37 |
| philiKON | it's not an iterable source | 17:37 |
| flox | i can only test containement? | 17:38 |
| flox | but i need to collect all Principals and display some annotations on a management page... | 17:39 |
| philiKON | flox, no, you need to use a source queriable | 17:40 |
| flox | how? i do not see | 17:41 |
| flox | i take the approach that benji told me? | 17:41 |
| philiKON | no | 17:41 |
| philiKON | just read the code, i'm sure it has tests | 17:41 |
| philiKON | i don't know exactly how it works either | 17:42 |
| philiKON | i'd have to look, too | 17:42 |
| flox | ok, PRincipalSource().getQueriables() | 17:43 |
| benji | IIRC, iterating over all priciples with PrincipalSource is non-trivial, but I'm not sure IIRC :) | 17:43 |
| philiKON | well, iterating is NEVER guaranteed | 17:44 |
| philiKON | you can only query | 17:44 |
| philiKON | try to query | 17:45 |
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| flox | benji, i tried.... the @@grant.html should help. | 17:45 |
| flox | but i did not find yet | 17:45 |
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| flox | the module zope.app.securitypolicy.browser.granting | 17:47 |
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| J1m | faassen, ayt? | 18:06 |
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| faassen | J1m: now I am. | 19:05 |
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| faassen | so how would one go about debugging this.. | 19:29 |
| faassen | somewherein the middle of page template execution in zope 3, it claims: | 19:30 |
| faassen | Warning: Macro expansion failed | 19:30 |
| faassen | Warning: exceptions.RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded | 19:30 |
| faassen | this appears in a traceback of some other error. | 19:30 |
| faassen | I'm a bit scared by this. :) | 19:30 |
| whit | pdb and lots of "u" | 19:33 |
| whit | ? | 19:33 |
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| faassen | yeah, pdb weirdness now. | 19:40 |
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| J1m | faassen, still there? | 20:22 |
| faassen | J1m: yes. | 20:27 |
| J1m | I was thinking about the zcml/testing issue. | 20:29 |
| faassen | J1m: ah, right. :) | 20:29 |
| J1m | I think I know what the "right" solution, but I want to work it out for sharing as an example. | 20:30 |
| faassen | J1m: okay, don't you set up your own ftesting.zcml in sharing? (I saw at least one package that did that) | 20:30 |
| J1m | I think that the tests should use a ftesting zcml file read from a their own package. | 20:30 |
| J1m | exactly. | 20:30 |
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| J1m | No use of package-includes. | 20:31 |
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| faassen | well, it's already doing that as far as I know. | 20:32 |
| faassen | and it's just what I was trying to avoid. | 20:32 |
| J1m | why would you try to avoid that. | 20:32 |
| J1m | ? | 20:32 |
| faassen | and I *could* avoid this before with zope 3 just fine. | 20:32 |
| faassen | because I don't want to write a completely useless ftesting.zcml | 20:32 |
| J1m | I submit that you don't want to. :) | 20:32 |
| faassen | it's more typing and thinking for me that I completely avoided in the past. | 20:32 |
| faassen | and now if I use buildout, I need to think about this. | 20:32 |
| J1m | Yes, but it is a way to: | 20:32 |
| faassen | and I need to update it for all dependencies. | 20:33 |
| J1m | - Be much surer what your dependencies really are | 20:33 |
| faassen | which is what buildout and setuptools is supposed to know about. | 20:33 |
| faassen | not me writing my package. | 20:33 |
| faassen | well, my dependencies is everything setup.py of my package tell sme to, plus the whole of zope 3's package listing | 20:33 |
| faassen | anyway, I'm really not interested in better programming practice here, I'm interested in not doing what I didn't have to do before. | 20:33 |
| J1m | - make your tests run much faster and more predictably. | 20:33 |
| faassen | I'm testing a big application. | 20:34 |
| J1m | OK, I think you are making a mistake. | 20:34 |
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| J1m | I'm willing to add a hack to the testrunner reciope to specift a working directory. | 20:34 |
| J1m | I really think Zope's ftesting.zcml needs to be handled differently, but package-includes makes this quite difficulet. | 20:35 |
| faassen | I'll grant you it would be nice to spell out everything, but it's still a situation where everything worked satisfactory before and now I suddenly need to think hard. | 20:35 |
| faassen | also I don't think it's a good barrier for a beginning programmer. | 20:35 |
| faassen | they want to do functional testing of their application. | 20:35 |
| faassen | and you tell them, oh, you need to write tests, right. | 20:36 |
| faassen | well, before you can write tests, you need to spell out exactly what the dependecies are and include the ZCML in this ftesting.zcml file, right. | 20:36 |
| faassen | and you also need to be aware of what the dependencies of these dependencies are, even if they're Zope 3 core. | 20:36 |
| J1m | If they have gotten to the point where they actually want to write tests, then they are probably willing to think about the boundaries of their application. | 20:36 |
| faassen | including the boundaries of Zope 3 core itself? | 20:37 |
| faassen | and any dependency they're using? | 20:37 |
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| J1m | The boundaries of zope3.core are defined by configure.zcml in zope.app. | 20:37 |
| J1m | The issue is the extras that are in package-includes. | 20:37 |
| faassen | anyway, I think you're displaying an attitude we frankly have to change in Zope 3 development. | 20:38 |
| J1m | Nothing in package-includes is core. | 20:38 |
| faassen | I agree that in principle it would be nice if I had a minimal ftesting.zcml that spelled out exactly what my application is using. | 20:38 |
| J1m | We | 20:38 |
| faassen | I don't think it's sound to *require* anyone who wants to write functional tests to learn about all that. | 20:38 |
| J1m | We've been doing that and it has worked very well for us. | 20:38 |
| faassen | well, I don't think this is an attitude that is friendly to people beginning Zope 3. | 20:39 |
| faassen | who want to write a functional test. | 20:39 |
| J1m | I think it was a mistake to encourage people to write tests assuming whatever happens to be in package-includes. | 20:39 |
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| J1m | That is a recipe for disaster. | 20:39 |
| faassen | I disagree. | 20:39 |
| faassen | I think it should be possible to write a functional test without having to know about package dependencies. | 20:39 |
| J1m | I'm speaking based on experiences building Zope 3 apps for customers. | 20:39 |
| faassen | I'm not saying that one cannot do this, and that it doesn't improve matters. | 20:40 |
| faassen | but Zope 3 should be less in the business of *forcing* the right way on people, if that right way also involves more work and more typing. | 20:40 |
| J1m | anyway, I can see another way. | 20:40 |
| J1m | This is sort of like the ZClases vs FileSystem products debate. | 20:41 |
| faassen | anyway, I will also look into writing an ftesting.zcml for the Document Library. | 20:41 |
| faassen | yes, it is like that. | 20:41 |
| J1m | so, the other way .... | 20:41 |
| faassen | I think we need to have a smooth curve. | 20:41 |
| faassen | where people can grow towards the right way from the less-right way. | 20:41 |
| J1m | One of the things I like about the buildout is that it makes it fairly easy to specify *just* what you want. | 20:42 |
| faassen | of course we also need to make the less-right way as good as possible, but sometimes you have to compromise on that level. | 20:42 |
| faassen | well, I put in * in there. :) | 20:42 |
| J1m | When you specify a Zope 3 instance you unermerate the ZCML, beyond the core, that you want to use. | 20:42 |
| faassen | in the zcml section. | 20:42 |
| whit | or just make the right way easy | 20:42 |
| faassen | whit: yes. | 20:42 |
| J1m | do you think that the zope3 instance makes you type too much? | 20:42 |
| faassen | whit: but it's not always possible to do easy and right at the same time. | 20:42 |
| faassen | J1m: I can use * in there. :) | 20:43 |
| J1m | do you? | 20:43 |
| faassen | J1m: yes. | 20:43 |
| J1m | OK, I give up. | 20:43 |
| faassen | J1m: so far I have. I took an existing application and didn't want to spend a while to specify all the ZCML and its dependencies. | 20:43 |
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| J1m | so, the zope3 zcml section without * is a lot like a custom site/ftesting zcml file. | 20:44 |
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| faassen | yes. | 20:44 |
| J1m | Perhaps it is easier to deal with. I don't know. | 20:44 |
| faassen | I think that is indeed easier. | 20:44 |
| faassen | I mean, if you're going to tell people to spell out dependencies. | 20:45 |
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| J1m | Anyway, rather than generating a bunch of package-include slugs, we could actually write a zcml file. | 20:45 |
| faassen | then It hink it's a better place than custom ftesting files which may need to be pulled in by custom testing layers. | 20:45 |
| J1m | This file could include all of the crap you get with *. | 20:45 |
| faassen | right. :) | 20:45 |
| J1m | This file could be placed in a more discoverable location. | 20:46 |
| faassen | indeed. | 20:46 |
| faassen | that sounds like a good approach. | 20:46 |
| J1m | But it will require changes to Zope 3 to make it look in that more discoverable location. | 20:46 |
| faassen | right. | 20:46 |
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| J1m | In the mean time, I suggest adding a working-directory option to the testrunner recipe. | 20:47 |
| faassen | ah, yes. :) | 20:47 |
| J1m | I'll do this eventually, but you could do it if you have time and motivation. | 20:47 |
| faassen | sure, I hadn't thought o fthat. | 20:47 |
| faassen | I'll look into that if I find the time. | 20:47 |
| whit | out of curiousity, what is the compelling reason currently for slugs? | 20:48 |
| faassen | should be relatively easy, though it'll take a bit of time to see how your testing strategy works now. | 20:48 |
| J1m | whit, it was an experiment in trying to make it easier to install new packages. | 20:48 |
| J1m | imo, it was a failed experiment. | 20:48 |
| whit | gotcha | 20:49 |
| J1m | We hate it here at zc. | 20:49 |
| J1m | The sort of use cases Martijn wants to support would probably be better served by egg entry points and something like chrism's egg basket. | 20:49 |
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| faassen | I'm not a big fan of package-includes myself. :) | 20:50 |
| J1m | Which is something that many of us will never use. :) But is a valid use case for some kinds of users I suppose. | 20:50 |
| faassen | I'm interested in the use case where people can work without dependency-understanding. | 20:50 |
| faassen | especially dependency-understanding of dependencies they don't write themselves, like bits o fthe zope 3 core or various extensinos. | 20:51 |
| J1m | faassen, I'm interested in a use case where beginners can work without understanding too much. | 20:51 |
| faassen | if I use zc.table I shouldn't be require to know about zc.resourcelibrary. | 20:51 |
| J1m | agreed | 20:51 |
| faassen | anyway, I agree that spelling out dependencies can make things more reliable and faster, etc. | 20:51 |
| faassen | and I'll look into spending a bit of time with the DocumentLibrary for that. | 20:51 |
| faassen | but it's also cognitive overhead and that's why I ranted aggressively. :) | 20:52 |
| mgedmin | the glorious zope 3 tradition of comitting bugfixes that break 3rd party apps continues -- see my last message to zope3-checkins | 20:52 |
| faassen | mgedmin: I think that's something that's a software tradition that goes beyond Zope 3. :) | 20:53 |
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| faassen | J1m: anyway, out of here. | 21:02 |
| faassen | J1m: thanks for the discussion. | 21:02 |
| faassen | see you later! | 21:02 |
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| J1m | later | 21:02 |
| * mgedmin decides that a mailing list is not the best place for bugs and writes http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/718 | 21:03 | |
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| edgordon | what is the story behind 'cheese shop'. why cheese? | 22:05 |
| J1m | http://www.phespirit.info/montypython/cheese_shop.htm | 22:06 |
| edgordon | haha. i remember that now | 22:06 |
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| benji | edgordon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDat9zdw7Gs | 22:09 |
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| benji | hmm, I drove him away | 22:14 |
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