IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2006-09-28

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radixso I've seen that other people have had this problem where on startup they get an "Unknown directive" ... "role" error, but no solutions. I'm getting that with a fresh checkout; build_ext; cp sample_principals.zcml principals.zcml;
radix(the error occurs parsing securitypolicy.zcml)00:21
philiKONwhich version of zope 3?00:22
philiKONusing a checkout i presuem?00:22
radixI just did a fresh checkout and build_ext to make sure I did nothing strange to my checkout00:22
philiKONhmm, role shouldn't occur in principals.zcml00:22
radixit's not in principals.zcml, it's in securitypolicy.zcml00:23
philiKON<role /> is securitypolicy-specific00:23
philiKONdid you disable zope's default security policy?00:23
radixI didn't do anything beyond the commands above.00:23
philiKONok, lemme check00:23
* philiKON svn ups00:23
philiKONso, you just checked out the trunk, copied sample_principals.zcml to principals.zcml and started zope, yes?00:24
radixto be more specific, I did "svn checkout <...>; cd Zope3; python build_ext -i; cp sample_principals.zcml principals.zcml; python"00:24
radixand the build_ext, that is..00:24
radixApparently this happened in 2005, as well:
philiKONbuild_ext isn't enough00:25
philiKONyou also need install_data00:26
philiKONjust say "make"00:26
philiKONthis is documented in README.txt00:26
philiKON(the full command rather than the "make" shortcut, but still, it's documented)00:26
radixoh, ok.00:26
philiKONactually, even "make" is documented :)00:26
radixok, stupid me. thanks for the help :)00:27
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markup_is zcml:condition documented in apidocs somewhere?01:59
philiKONnot sure01:59
philiKONi know it's documenetd in my new book :/01:59
markup_looking forward to it :)01:59
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febbhola !   hi all !02:10
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febbHello there !... anyone awake ?06:27
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* baijum cann't see README.txt (Installation notes) and Licence text here:
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febbhi philiKON,   how are you?09:43
philiKONgood, thank you09:43
febbgreat. !  glad to hear.  how you did with your book ?09:43
philiKONit's finished :)09:45
febbthat is great.  :)  that's the one we'll be getting on the course (in Copenhagen next week),  right?09:45
febbhi romanosfski09:46
philiKONfebb, yes, well, it's not printed yet09:46
philiKONbut you'll be getting a voucher09:46
febbyeah,  I know...thats the reason of the vouchers.09:47
febbIt is based on Zope-3.3.0 ?  the book I mean ?09:47
febbcool.  I just dloaded it and installed it...everything went fine. It no loger has all the bugs after the "make check".09:47
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febbI am only fighting with some adapter for postgresql for Zope 3.3.0       the one on add on packages doesn't work...  :(09:48
febbhavn't  tried from svn ....09:49
febbwill do tomorrow.    just before packing  and leaving to CPH... !09:49
philiKONheh, cool09:49
philiKONsee you09:49
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febboh..ok  see ya.   ! :)09:50
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harobedphiliKON: is your next book release, there are a Catalog chapiter ?11:21
harobedand you speak about my last question "Re: are you one example to add a content component in root ZODB folder in interactive command ?"11:22
harobedthanks for your example11:23
harobed"root" is global variable ?11:23
harobedalways accessible  ?11:23
philiKONin debugzope11:23
harobedok, it's simple11:23
philiKONof course11:23
philiKONRTFM containers11:23
harobedbut this information is hard to found I thinks11:24
harobedcontainers chapiter ?11:24
philiKONof course11:24
philiKONbaijum, ping11:27
philiKONtheuni, the http put thing is a bugfix?11:30
theuniarguably a "jein"11:31
baijumphiliKON, pong11:31
harobedphiliKON: I search "root" from 233 page to 25311:31
harobedI don't see it :(11:31
philiKONbaijum, how did you compile ?11:31
philiKONharobed, of course not11:31
philiKONharobed, the hcapter is about containers11:31
philiKONroot is a container11:31
philiKONfigure out the rest11:31
philiKONtheuni, please elaborate11:31
theunisec. we're checking that.11:32
baijumphiliKON, you mean why I created it?11:32
philiKONwhere did you get this list11:33
baijumfrom collector11:33
philiKONyes. how?11:33
philiKONwhat did you do11:33
baijumonly bugs11:33
baijumno issue/features11:33
harobedphiliKON: ok, in which chapiter then ?11:33
philiKONharobed, sigh.11:33
philiKONharobed, read what i said above11:33
philiKONbaijum, aha11:34
philiKONbaijum, you're still not telling me what you did11:34
philiKONdoing involves a verb11:34
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baijumjust visted, and took all bugs11:35
theuniphiliKON: it's a bugfix. we're porting it to 3.3 and 3.2 now.11:35
philiKONtheuni, thanks11:35
philiKONbaijum, sigh, ok11:35
philiKONbaijum, thanks11:35
philiKONbaijum, this list sin't complete yet11:35
philiKONbecause bugs were fixed on the 3.3 branch but never backported to 3.211:35
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baijumhow can we find those?11:36
baijumok :)11:37
philiKON__mac__, what's the status on ?11:43
theuni__mac__ isn't there. please record a message after the *beeeeep*11:44
philiKONhi __mac__, it's me, philipp11:46
philiKONlisten, i was wondering11:46
philiKONwhat's the status on ?11:46
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philiKONmy number is philikon@philikon.de11:46
philiKONplease call me back11:46
* philiKON hangs up11:46
philiKONhi strichter11:46
philiKONtheuni, :)11:48
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srichterphiliKON: hi11:50
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theunimister pieters!11:53
harobedphiliKON: if I've a persistent object instance, if I don't append it in root or other subfolder. next if I exit interactive command, how can I fetch this object ?12:03
philiKONyou can't12:03
philiKONyou need to store it somewhere12:03
philiKONotherwise it won't be saved12:03
harobedok thanks, I understand12:04
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philiKONbaijum, i think a list liike the Zope32Maintainance page is a bad idea12:06
philiKONif it's just a 1:1 copy from the collector info12:06
philiKONthe collector info is updated, Zope32Maintainance may not12:06
philiKONi'm going to get rid of the bug listing there12:06
baijumphiliKON: ok12:07
baijumphiliKON, why no tag for for Zope 3.2 release, the trunk is changed to use latest Python?12:11
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baijumuse zpkgtools trunk  for new 3.2.2 release ?12:12
baijumso, marking this as fixed
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baijumI was trying to back port to 3.2 branch12:40
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baijumbut there is no zope.lifecyclevent12:40
baijumwhat is equivalent of `zope.lifecycleevent` in 3.2 ?12:41
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philiKONmoin faassen13:01
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scherandcan anybody tell me what happens to existing objects in the zodb when i change their implementation by adding, or more interestingly, removing attributes? are they just empty (if they are additions) or are they deleted (if i remove them)? or are they kept for those objects that once had them an will "reappear" if i re-add the attribute?15:37
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scherandups, by "they" i mean the attributes15:37
philiKONthat depends on whether the attributes are class level or instance level15:42
philiKONinstance level attriubtes will be persisted15:42
faassenbasically the rule is that the persistent objects don't change at all when you change its implementation.15:42
philiKONthe pickles don't change15:42
faassenif you have class-level attributes, then that's not actually pickled at all.15:43
faassenthe code changes, not the content.15:43
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faassenscherand: there is a way to evolve objects, look at
faassenthat's a framework for changing them.15:44
faassenbeware that changing objects and evolving a database is not for the faint of heart, unfortunately.15:44
faassenthough simple cases are simple enough.15:44
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benjiZope requires courage in it's devotees!15:45
scherandsounds like one should best use the strategy i am very bad at: think first, then code...15:47
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regebrobenji: This gets more and more like a sect every year. :-)15:51
benjiheh :)15:51
regebroscherand: I've found that test-driven programming lets me code first and think later.15:52
regebroBut you will always end up with situations where you need to change things that exists in ZODB.15:52
regebroI've found it's usually not very difficult. is, as I understand it, mostly for the difficult cases.15:53
benjiright, you can often get away with some defensive coding instead of using generations15:53
* philiKON notes that his new book will cover generations15:54
philiKONs/will cover/covers/15:54
* benji wonders when philiKON's new edition will be out15:54
* philiKON wonders the same thing15:54
* benji also wonders if it covers 3.2 or 3.315:54
philiKONas said, final manuscript was submitted monday morning15:55
dlkargh stupid oralce installer15:55
dlkoops, sorry wrong window15:55
faassendlk: hey, no more criticizing Oracle! :)15:55
benjibut it /is/ stupid15:56
faassenoh, wait, I'm not with Oracle.15:56
* faassen grins.15:56
faassenI have nothing to do with Oracle and don't want to have much to do with them either.15:56
dlksoyy, i did not mean to imply dislike for oracle :-)15:56
dlkonly their installers :)15:56
faassendlk: I'm just being silly, referring back to our previous discussion. :)15:57
dlkI know :)15:57
regebroOK, so the book is here for x-mas? :-)15:57
benjicontrast that with Microsoft software, usually the installer is the best part15:57
dlkcab we buy the pdf online somewhere ? :-)15:57
dlkbenji: actually, I like MS hardware best. It is really good.15:58
benjiI would really like a PDF version too15:59
regebrodlk: Seen the new experimental MS-soapmouse? I want one.16:05
dlkno, not et.16:05
dlkyet, even16:05
dlkneato :)16:07
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* benji is really interested in alternate input devices16:13
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floxhow i can get the local site, when i hv a context?16:39
floxgetSiteManager().__parent__ ???16:41
floxthanks benji16:45
benjiglad to help16:45
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* flox is looking for a way to list all Principals17:24
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benjiflox: if you're using the PAU, look it up (it's registered as the utility) and then get the set of users you want to enumerate (e.g., pau['my_users'])17:30
floxbenji: it gives me < object at 0x0323E5B0>17:31
floxthen i get ".items()' ?17:31
benjithat should work17:31
benjiactually .values() is probably what you want17:32
benji(I doubt you care about the IDs of the objects)17:32
philiKONflox, i suggesting using the Principal source17:32
floxi was looking for some kind of "pau.getPrincipals()"17:33
floxphiliKON: how i extract the principals from ps=PrincipalSource() ?17:33
benjiyeah, I had forgotten about it, philiKON17:33
philiKONflox, not princnipalSource()17:34
philiKONit's a source17:34
philiKONas in vocabularies17:34
philiKONgrep for it17:34
philiKONyou use it like a vocuablary17:34
floxphiliKON: i hv to read again the chapter on Vocabs17:34
floxphiliKON: i need to loop on principals, to work on their annotations17:35
philiKONyes, use the principal source for that17:36
philiKONfrom import PrincipalSource17:36
floxfor p in PrincipalSource() does not work...17:37
floxok, i open the book17:37
philiKONthe book ain't got it17:37
philiKONit's not an iterable source17:37
floxi can only test containement?17:38
floxbut i need to collect all Principals and display some annotations on a management page...17:39
philiKONflox, no, you need to use a source queriable17:40
floxhow? i do not see17:41
floxi take the approach that benji told me?17:41
philiKONjust read the code, i'm sure it has tests17:41
philiKONi don't know exactly how it works either17:42
philiKONi'd have to look, too17:42
floxok, PRincipalSource().getQueriables()17:43
benjiIIRC, iterating over all priciples with PrincipalSource is non-trivial, but I'm not sure IIRC :)17:43
philiKONwell, iterating is NEVER guaranteed17:44
philiKONyou can only query17:44
philiKONtry to query17:45
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floxbenji, i tried.... the @@grant.html should help.17:45
floxbut i did not find yet17:45
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floxthe module
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J1mfaassen, ayt?18:06
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faassenJ1m: now I am.19:05
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faassenso how would one go about debugging this..19:29
faassensomewherein the middle of page template execution in zope 3, it claims:19:30
faassenWarning: Macro expansion failed19:30
faassenWarning: exceptions.RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded19:30
faassenthis appears in a traceback of some other error.19:30
faassenI'm a bit scared by this. :)19:30
whitpdb and lots of "u"19:33
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faassenyeah, pdb weirdness now.19:40
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J1mfaassen, still there?20:22
faassenJ1m: yes.20:27
J1mI was thinking about the zcml/testing issue.20:29
faassenJ1m: ah, right. :)20:29
J1mI think I know what the "right" solution, but I want to work it out for sharing as an example.20:30
faassenJ1m: okay, don't you set up your own ftesting.zcml in sharing? (I saw at least one package that did that)20:30
J1mI think that the tests should use a ftesting zcml file read from a their own package.20:30
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J1mNo use of package-includes.20:31
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faassenwell, it's already doing that as far as I know.20:32
faassenand it's just what I was trying to avoid.20:32
J1mwhy would you try to avoid that.20:32
faassenand I *could* avoid this before with zope 3 just fine.20:32
faassenbecause I don't want to write a completely useless ftesting.zcml20:32
J1mI submit that you don't want to. :)20:32
faassenit's more typing and thinking for me that I completely avoided in the past.20:32
faassenand now if I use buildout, I need to think about this.20:32
J1mYes, but it is a way to:20:32
faassenand I need to update it for all dependencies.20:33
J1m- Be much surer what your dependencies really are20:33
faassenwhich is what buildout and setuptools is supposed to know about.20:33
faassennot me writing my package.20:33
faassenwell, my dependencies is everything of my package tell sme to, plus the whole of zope 3's package listing20:33
faassenanyway, I'm really not interested in better programming practice here, I'm interested in not doing what I didn't have to do before.20:33
J1m- make your tests run much faster and more predictably.20:33
faassenI'm testing a big application.20:34
J1mOK, I think you are making a mistake.20:34
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J1mI'm willing to add a hack to the testrunner reciope to specift a working directory.20:34
J1mI really think Zope's ftesting.zcml needs to be handled differently, but package-includes makes this quite difficulet.20:35
faassenI'll grant you it would be nice to spell out everything, but it's still a situation where everything worked satisfactory before and now I suddenly need to think hard.20:35
faassenalso I don't think it's a good barrier for a beginning programmer.20:35
faassenthey want to do functional testing of their application.20:35
faassenand you tell them, oh, you need to write tests, right.20:36
faassenwell, before you can write tests, you need to spell out exactly what the dependecies are and include the ZCML in this ftesting.zcml file, right.20:36
faassenand you also need to be aware of what the dependencies of these dependencies are, even if they're Zope 3 core.20:36
J1mIf they have gotten to the point where they actually want to write tests, then they are probably willing to think about the boundaries of their application.20:36
faassenincluding the boundaries of Zope 3 core itself?20:37
faassenand any dependency they're using?20:37
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J1mThe boundaries of zope3.core are defined by configure.zcml in
J1mThe issue is the extras that are in package-includes.20:37
faassenanyway, I think you're displaying an attitude we frankly have to change in Zope 3 development.20:38
J1mNothing in package-includes is core.20:38
faassenI agree that in principle it would be nice if I had a minimal ftesting.zcml that spelled out exactly what my application is using.20:38
faassenI don't think it's sound to *require* anyone who wants to write functional tests to learn about all that.20:38
J1mWe've been doing that and it has worked very well for us.20:38
faassenwell, I don't think this is an attitude that is friendly to people beginning Zope 3.20:39
faassenwho want to write a functional test.20:39
J1mI think it was a mistake to encourage people to write tests assuming whatever happens to be in package-includes.20:39
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J1mThat is a recipe for disaster.20:39
faassenI disagree.20:39
faassenI think it should be possible to write a functional test without having to know about package dependencies.20:39
J1mI'm speaking based on experiences building Zope 3 apps for customers.20:39
faassenI'm not saying that one cannot do this, and that it doesn't improve matters.20:40
faassenbut Zope 3 should be less in the business of *forcing* the right way on people, if that right way also involves more work and more typing.20:40
J1manyway, I can see another way.20:40
J1mThis is sort of like the ZClases vs FileSystem products debate.20:41
faassenanyway, I will also look into writing an ftesting.zcml for the Document Library.20:41
faassenyes, it is like that.20:41
J1mso, the other way ....20:41
faassenI think we need to have a smooth curve.20:41
faassenwhere people can grow towards the right way from the less-right way.20:41
J1mOne of the things I like about the buildout is that it makes it fairly easy to specify *just* what you want.20:42
faassenof course we also need to make the less-right way as good as possible, but sometimes you have to compromise on that level.20:42
faassenwell, I put in * in there. :)20:42
J1mWhen you specify a Zope 3 instance you unermerate the ZCML, beyond the core, that you want to use.20:42
faassenin the zcml section.20:42
whitor just make the right way easy20:42
faassenwhit: yes.20:42
J1mdo you think that the zope3 instance makes you type too much?20:42
faassenwhit: but it's not always possible to do easy and right at the same time.20:42
faassenJ1m: I can use * in there. :)20:43
J1mdo you?20:43
faassenJ1m: yes.20:43
J1mOK, I give up.20:43
faassenJ1m: so far I have. I took an existing application and didn't want to spend a while to specify all the ZCML and its dependencies.20:43
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J1mso, the zope3 zcml section without * is a lot like a custom site/ftesting zcml file.20:44
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J1mPerhaps it is easier to deal with. I don't know.20:44
faassenI think that is indeed easier.20:44
faassenI mean, if you're going to tell people to spell out dependencies.20:45
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J1mAnyway, rather than generating a bunch of package-include slugs, we could actually write a zcml file.20:45
faassenthen It hink it's a better place than custom ftesting files which may need to be pulled in by custom testing layers.20:45
J1mThis file could include all of the crap you get with *.20:45
faassenright. :)20:45
J1mThis file could be placed in a more discoverable location.20:46
faassenthat sounds like a good approach.20:46
J1mBut it will require changes to Zope 3 to make it look in that more discoverable location.20:46
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J1mIn the mean time, I suggest adding a working-directory option to the testrunner recipe.20:47
faassenah, yes. :)20:47
J1mI'll do this eventually, but you could do it if you have time and motivation.20:47
faassensure, I hadn't thought o fthat.20:47
faassenI'll look into that if I find the time.20:47
whitout of curiousity, what is the compelling reason currently for slugs?20:48
faassenshould be relatively easy, though it'll take a bit of time to see how your testing strategy works now.20:48
J1mwhit, it was an experiment in trying to make it easier to install new packages.20:48
J1mimo, it was a failed experiment.20:48
J1mWe hate it here at zc.20:49
J1mThe sort of use cases Martijn wants to support would probably be better served by egg entry points and something like chrism's egg basket.20:49
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faassenI'm not a big fan of package-includes myself. :)20:50
J1mWhich is something that many of us will never use. :) But is a valid use case for some kinds of users I suppose.20:50
faassenI'm interested in the use case where people can work without dependency-understanding.20:50
faassenespecially dependency-understanding of dependencies they don't write themselves, like bits o fthe zope 3 core or various extensinos.20:51
J1mfaassen, I'm interested in a use case where beginners can work without understanding too much.20:51
faassenif I use zc.table I shouldn't be require to know about zc.resourcelibrary.20:51
faassenanyway, I agree that spelling out dependencies can make things more reliable and faster, etc.20:51
faassenand I'll look into spending a bit of time with the DocumentLibrary for that.20:51
faassenbut it's also cognitive overhead and that's why I ranted aggressively. :)20:52
mgedminthe glorious zope 3 tradition of comitting bugfixes that break 3rd party apps continues -- see my last message to zope3-checkins20:52
faassenmgedmin: I think that's something that's a software tradition that goes beyond Zope 3. :)20:53
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faassenJ1m: anyway, out of here.21:02
faassenJ1m: thanks for the discussion.21:02
faassensee you later!21:02
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* mgedmin decides that a mailing list is not the best place for bugs and writes
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edgordonwhat is the story behind 'cheese shop'. why cheese?22:05
edgordonhaha. i remember that now22:06
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benjihmm, I drove him away22:14
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