IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2006-09-29

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radixis there any general way to do whitespace-normalized tagless text searches in the contents of a test browser?01:19
benjinope, I normally feed browser.contents to BeautifulSoup and use that to dig out whatever it is I want01:20
radixyeah, I guess that's what I'll do01:20
radixhm, I guess I can do something like "Foo Bar Baz" in ''.join(BeautifulSoup(browser.contents).findAll(text=True))01:24
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benjiI /think/ (but am not sure) that BS has a "give me the text without the tags" method, but I don't recall what it's named01:31
radixhork, the one in dapper is way out of date.01:32
benjiyeah, I never depend on OS-packaged software01:36
benji(as far as software components go, that is)01:39
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radixhmm, I also need a way to normalize the whitespace01:45
benjiradix: if you're using doctest, you can have it do it for you01:57
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radixbenji: oh! I didn't think of that02:27
radixalthough not quite as nicely02:27
radixor maybe I can?02:28
* radix tries something02:28
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radixbecause doctest's whitespace normalization maintains newlines, it looks like02:31
benjiradix: hrm, you'll just have to do it yourself: ' '.join(your_string.split()) migth work for you02:34
radixyep, already got it02:35
radix >>> getText = lambda st: ' '.join(''.join(soup(st).fetchText(lambda x: True)).split())02:36
benjiyow! :)02:37
* benji waits in suspence to find out where philiKON is "laughing out" of; out side? out of his window?02:45
* philiKON was just sayiing "hello"02:46
philiKONbut too lazy to type w/ both hands02:46
benjiwouldn't that be "hllo"?02:46
philiKON(that's only left ahnd)02:47
philiKON(only right hand)02:47
benjiI wrote a program once that let you type with one hand by "flipping" the keyboard mapping over on itself when you held down the caps-lock key02:47
philiKONnice. would help whenever i'm eating an apple02:47
philiKONi learned to touch type when i was 12 or so02:48
philiKONi just plain hate typing slower than i have to ;)02:48
benjialso good for typing with one hand on the mouse02:48
philiKONerr, ahving to type slower02:48
benjiyeah, I've been typeing since about then (whin /I/ was 12, not you)02:48
* philiKON was probalby crapping in dipers?02:49
benjiI doubt it, unless you were particularly hard to potty-train02:49
benjiI'm just 30.02:49
philiKONah :)02:49
philiKONi'm 2302:50
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febbhello all02:50
benjithere's a company selling a keyboard that does the same thing as my software, it's a shame too, because I would gladly release it at no cost and they charge $600 for a single keyboard (but they threatend me with a patent suite, so I dropped the idea)02:51
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benjiand they target handicapped people as customers, slimebags (the company, not the handicapped people)02:52
philiKONsoftware patents suck02:52
philiKONthank god i live in europe :)02:52
benjihey, maybe you could "write" the software and release it there02:52
philiKONand never be able to enter the u.s. again?02:53
benjihrm, that's a distinct possability :(02:53
philiKONi'd probably be taken in custody by the homeland gestapo^H^H^H^H^H^H^H security immediately02:53
benjiheh :)02:54
febbbenji:  Mexico is as good as Europe... for what is worth mentioning !  ;)02:54
philiKONfebb, except w/o government :)02:54
febbyeah...  it has its advantages....02:54
benjiI may retire to Mexico, in 30 years or so (or maybe Costa Rica)02:55
febbbe my guest ... for sure you will be welcome here.     where are you, btw ?02:55
benjiin the US (Virginia)02:56
* philiKON has to stop by f12g next time on the way to pycon02:56
febbyeah,  near Wash, DC.....02:56
benjidefinitely, philiKON02:57
benjiI would like to go to pycon next year... I probably need to start thinking about that02:57
philiKONit's time for me to meet you guys :)02:58
philiKONi only know jim02:58
philiKONand lots of ex-zc guys02:58
philiKONlol, i know 80% of ZC as it was 4 years ago :)02:58
benjihopefully by then we'll have more ZC guys to know; we're trying to hire some people ATM03:00
benjiwell, time for me to head home; I'll be back tomorrow03:02
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harobedhi, same in svn version, there aren't IDict Widget, why this ? It's a bad idea ?11:05
TheuniDo you mean it was removed or it never existed?11:16
harobedit never existed11:20
Theunihmm. then maybe nobody needed it until now and therefor didn't make it.11:22
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rockywow the zope3 mailing lists have really picked up in activity lately17:03
philiKONspecially zope3-users17:03
philiKONlots of users helping each other17:03
rockysounds like another nice milestone in zope3 use being reached17:04
philiKONzope 3.3 is in a lot of ways an important milestone17:05
philiKONnot so much technologically17:05
philiKONwell, also technologically17:05
philiKONbut LOTS of deployments are happening these days17:05
philiKONlots of new users17:05
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philiKONlots of 3rd party stuff17:05
philiKONnew book ;)17:06
rockyyep... and the plone community is more gung-ho then ever... zope 3.3 presents a release where plone will be pushing local utilities *alot*17:06
rockyalthough that's more related to zope 2.1017:06
rockybut they're joined at the hip17:06
philiKONyes. that's the technological side of things17:06
philiKONlocal utilities are important for zope 217:06
philiKONi think w/o the simplifications in zope 3.3/2.10, it would be much more difficult for the plone guys17:07
rockyplone people need things as simple as possible17:07
rockythird-party plone developers i mean17:07
rockypart of the appeal of plone17:07
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faassenI think you're using a different word for 'simple' there.17:46
faassensimplification in the way ZCML gets registered by having less directives doesn't *necessarily* mean simpler use.17:47
faassenI mean, both are valuable forms of simplication.17:47
faassenbut one doesn't necessarily mean the other.17:47
faassenrocky and philiKON :)17:47
philiKONhi faassen17:47
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philiKONyou're right17:47
philiKONrocky means "simple" for the user17:48
philiKONi meant "simple" for the plone framework17:48
rockyi mean a little bit of both :)17:48
faassenanyway, hope to start a project the next Zope 3.x cycle to simplify things for the developer.17:48
faassennot a core Zope 3 project, at least mostly not.17:48
regebroHaha! I see I accidentaly stumble into a discussion about exactly the issue that I wanted to talk about! :-)17:48
faassenI hope, that is.17:48
faassenoh, good. :)17:48
philiKONfaassen, grok, is it17:49
philiKONi have some of my own ideas now :)17:49
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philiKONi think i'll come to coethen for the weekend17:49
faassenphiliKON: Halle :)17:49
philiKONah, right17:49
philiKONthey moved17:49
faassenphiliKON: they moved.17:49
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faassenphiliKON: right, I'm going to be there.17:49
philiKONi know :)17:49
philiKONlooking forward to that17:49
faassenso you're going to join too?17:50
faassenI hope we can manage to make tasks concrete relatively quickly.17:50
regebroI percieve a conflict between the need to have a consistent and flexible framwork with little overhead, and beature in code, and the need to make it easyto make products.17:50
faassenregebro: let me mail you my grok document.17:50
philiKONfaassen, yes, join for the weekend17:51
regebroI talked to faassen about this before (and he said he would mail it) and after talking to JMO and johanc about it, I'm even more convinced.17:51
philiKONi would like to work on the "bobo" end of things :)17:51
regebroWe need to create a stack. Where I think Zope3 should be the bottom, grok the next level, and some sort of CMS the top one. :)17:52
regebroWhich I hope is exactly what you said here before I arrived. :)17:52
rockyregebro: i disagree, i think we live in a utopia where i can have my cake and eat it too :)17:52
regebrorocky: You do. But most developer don't. :-)17:53
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rockyin a somewhat related note, i'm getting quite tired of the "my language is better than yours, and my web framework is better than yours" discussions in the software industry these days17:53
faassenregebro: I just mailed you two documents.17:54
faassenrocky: you awnt them too? :)17:54
faassenphiliKON: I'll mail you the two documents. developer-end and beginner-end.17:54
benjirocky: can't we all just get along?17:54
rockyi like python, i like zope 3, my customers like plone... so i will build some solutions on that where appropriate17:54
philiKONfaassen, why not simply check it in somewhere?17:54
rockyfaassen: sure thing :)   rocky@serverzen.com17:54
faassenphiliKON: I don't want it to be public yet.17:54
rockybenji: indeed ;)17:54
faassenphiliKON: I'm still mulling. :)17:54
philiKONfaassen, aha.17:54
rockybut seriously... as i pointed on on jmo's latest blog post as a comment... use the tool for the job, don't use stupid zope3 CA for your 15 line py script that has to do something based on a cron event17:55
faassenbenji: you want a copy too? :)17:56
benjia copy of what?17:56
benjithe complete works of Monty Python?  Sure!17:56
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rockybenji: his reasoning for switching to java...  *grin*17:56
faassenbenji: the documents on making zope 3 easier. Grok. :)17:56
faassenright, I'm going to switch to Java too, JMO convinced me.17:56
* benji refrains from commenting on JMO and all that17:57
benjisure, I'll take a look, faassen, but have very little time for the next couple of months17:57
faassenbenji: that's okay. :)17:57
faassenbenji: you're smarter than I am.17:58
rockybenji: you're not allowed to read his document without total submission to the direction aforementioned and total dedication to implementation within a 1 month time frame  :)17:58
faassenbesidse if we comment on him here, our conversation will be in his next blog entry soon. :)17:58
faassenlike happened with our recent discussion.17:58
* rocky didn't realize that17:58
faassenon the top.17:59
rockyoh right18:00
philiKONfaassen, to be fair, he finally wrote something more to the point:
faassenregebro: yes, sort of a stack is what we need to repond to your earlier comment.18:00
faassenregebro: though I hope a very flat stack. I don't want grok to be a huge layer on top of zope 3. I want it to be more or less equivalent as a "layer" to what the ZCML configuration layer is .18:01
regebrofaassen: Yes, that's pretty much it.18:01
philiKONfaassen, one of my recent themes i've been pondering about is "automation vs. magic"18:01
philiKONi think it'd be great if grok would be more automation than magic18:01
faassenphiliKON: yes, at least it's concrete. I mean, it's a bit less subtle than I'd like it to be. I mean, as rocky says, I use python primarily and go into the CA when needed for pluggability.18:02
faassenphiliKON: at least that's my aim. ZCML forces itself on you a bit too much right now.18:02
philiKONfaassen, well, you were talking about conventions at EP18:02
faassenphiliKON: well, what's the difference? automation is perfect, predictable magic. :)18:02
philiKONwhich are fine18:02
faassenyes, conventions over configuration.18:02
philiKONi would call it "automation over configuration" :018:03
faassenmagic is generally too smart.18:03
regebroI want BIG HAMMERS.18:03
faassenI don't want grok to be too smart. it needs to fit the brain.18:03
regebroI was going for big ZCML statements with reasonable defaults.18:03
philiKONregebro, i want python18:03
philiKONbasically something like this:18:03
regebrofaassen wants python thingamajigs.18:03
rockyi think reasonable defaults is the single biggest missing concept in zope 2, zope 3 (and plone for us)18:03
faassenregebro: I'm going the other way. now that ZCML statements are so simple, I am trying to make many go away. especially the ones that are just 'on-switches'18:03
philiKONfaassen, exactly.18:03
regebroWhich way we choose is probably less important, as long as everything is overrideable in some way.18:04
regebroAnd preferably more than ince.18:04
philiKONfaassen, but, please no automagic package findings, etc.18:04
faassenI also think we need higher level components.18:04
rockyformlib is a good example of reasonable defaults, but most of zope3 doesn't use this approach imho18:04
faassenlike, a CRUD framework.18:04
philiKONfaassen, let's not repeat the magic mistakes of zope 218:04
philiKONrocky, yes. formlib is an *excellent* example of automation18:04
philiKONyou can customize the hell out of it if you want to18:04
regebrofaassen: That I can agree with. Much of the ZCML in the "lower stack" should simply go away. Maybe all of it.18:04
philiKONbut often you're fine with a 2 liner18:04
faassenphiliKON: I'm not too interested in package finding right now. I mean, I think some automation couldn't hurt there, but that's not something that's my prime goal, so don't get too worried. :)18:05
rockyphiliKON: exactly18:05
philiKONfaassen, good18:05
faassenthough some of formlib is overly complicated.18:05
faassenI mean, try making your own actions. you have to deal with tons of Python magic.18:05
philiKONhmm, yeah, depends18:05
faassenregebro: anyway, we have a sprint at gocept around the weekend of the 14th of october. :)18:06
faassenanyway, making a good pluggable API is an art.18:06
faassenthe CA helps.18:07
regebrofaassen: Halle/Saale?18:07
faassenregebro: yes, Halle.18:07
philiKONregebro, yup18:07
faassenanyway, to say what JMO pehraps was trying to say, the CA doesn't replace good API design.18:08
regebroSo, it's in the hall, not in the room? :-) (sal means big room in Swedish).18:08
faassenregebro: Halle is a town. :)18:08
faassenbut yeah, that's a pun or play on words. :)18:08
regebroWhere in germany is it?18:08
faasseneastern germany, an hour or so from Berlin.18:09
regebroHmmm. I suspect I have no time. I'll think about it.18:09
faassenregebro: you should check up with Gocept, I don't know whether they'll have room. :)18:10
faassenregebro: with me and my wife coming, and now Philipp joining too. :)18:10
* philiKON is sleeping on zagy's couch18:10
faassenregebro: but for all I know they do. anyway, ask them. I can talk to them too if you like.18:10
rockyi had to explain to someone today (a plone developer trying to customize some new zope3 thing in plone) how using the CA doesn't guarantee good design ;)18:10
regebroNo, as mentioned, I'll think about it.18:10
faassenregebro: would be cool if you could join.18:10
faassenanyway, this is a good start, so many people potentially interested. :)18:11
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faassenby this time next year who knows what we'll be doing. :)18:11
faassenwith whatever gets thought up.18:11
regebroWell, I'd like to come, but it's mostly an issue of time.18:13
faassenyes, I understand.18:14
faassenIt was just a "Martijn visits Gocept" thing originally. :)18:14
regebroI suspect that I have no time for framworking until january. :)18:14
faassenregebro: it'll takea  while before we're ramped up.18:14
faassenanyway, I'm out of here. see you!18:15
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benjirocky: very true; there's a corollary (sp?) too: if you start to write a registry, stop.  It's likely you should use utilities or adapters instead.18:15
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rockybenji: right... well for me, when i have a problem i by default assume i'm going to try solving it with python (just happens to be my preferred tool) ... if i'm going to end up designing some architecture, I try to identify some good design patterns i should use... and a lot of those design patterns can be implemented using zope CA pieces (utilities, adapters)...18:17
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benjiIt'd be cool to collect a set of "if you are about to..." things; "if you're about to drive a nail, find a hammer" ;)18:18
rockyhaha, indeed18:18
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rocky"if you need a singleton, you probably should build a utility"18:19
rockysingleton being the design pattern, utility being the zope3 concept that fits quite nicely18:19
rockyi have to admit it feels like we're only just now catching up to smalltalk in a lot of respects concerning design patterns and component architectures... ;)18:21
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timtedo zope3 come with any content types like news or events?22:19
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edgordontimte: seems like those are pretty simple content types. anything particular you are having trouble implementing w/ zope.schema?22:52
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