IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2006-11-07

* benji prefers to go to Japanese restaurants00:01
philiKONhmmmm. Teppanyaki00:02
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timteyay, no I can browse the filles on the filesystem in the zmi00:11
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scherandhi eveyone. can somebody help me try to understand some conceptual things about zope3? i am wondering how i decide where the "boundary" between two products(?)/modules(?) is or should be.15:44
scherandlet me give an example:15:45
scherandlet's say i have a site that lets me organise (scientific) conferences. the site might be more than this, but this also15:45
scherandnow i have a list/set of persons i know about that could participate at the conferences i organise. these people work in certain institutes.15:46
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scherandso i have kind of three "objects": persons, institutions and conferences. people have a relation to institutions and coferences.15:47
scherandhow many "modules" do i use? one (containing persons, institutions and conferences)? two (one containing people and institutions and one for conferences)? or three (one each)?15:48
faassenwhat do you mean by 'module'?15:48
faassenas in a python module? foo.py15:48
faassenanyway, in general if you design an application, my experience is to not break it up until it actually becomes easier to manage or extend broken up.15:49
scherandall the files that reside in a directory. is this a package in pyhton-talk?15:49
faassenokay, let's talk about python packages and modules, and projects for good measure, first.15:49
scherandsorry :)15:49
faassena python module is a .py file that can be imported by Python.15:49
faassenthat's okay.15:49
faassento be imported by Python it needs to be on the python path, typically.15:50
faassena python package is a directory with a in it. python recognizes that directory as importable, just like a module, if it's on the python path.15:50
faassenit can contain sub packages and modules.15:50
faassentypically a modern python application consists of a package which contains the code, plus a few small scripts to get the whole thing started that reside outside the package.15:51
faassenif the application is really small, it may however be just all be in a single module.15:51
faassenfor a zope 3 application, you can safely assume you always use packages, though.15:51
faassennow as to the word 'project'.15:51
faassena package part of a project, but a project isn't only the package.15:51
faassena project is more than that, may contain a python, a README.txt, a change log, etc.15:51
scherandon what level you usually have the things you then "use" in zope3? package, right?15:51
faassenthey're packages, yeah.15:52
faassenanyway, to finish the project discussion, for intsance the thing you get when you check out Zope 3 from svn is not a package, it's a project.15:52
faassenwhich contains a whole bunch of packages under 'src'15:52
faassenanyway, then as a general tip in application design, don't factor stuff into different parts until you need to.15:53
faassenas only then will you be sure what needs to be in different places.15:53
faassenand you don't end up with a lot of small modules not pulling their weight.15:53
faassenso, what you could do in the zope 3 case, is a package15:53
faassenand then containing a single module, let's call it core.py15:53
faassenand you put everything you need into that for now.15:53
faassenof course eventually you may need to separate the web frontend stuff away from the implementation stuff.15:54
faassenand the interface definitions away from the implementation too.15:54
faassenand templates are going to be somewhere in the package called .pt too.15:54
faassenand then there are typical ways to organize a zope 3 package.15:54
faassenbut that's not application specific.15:54
faassenas to your application specific stuff, keep everything together for now.15:54
scherandso my whole site would be *one* package? organised as one typically does, but one folder, so to speak.15:54
faassenand only when the application grows and you see logical units split it.15:54
faassenyou say 'site'15:55
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faassenI'm trying to understand what you mean by the word 'site' here.15:55
scherandlet me try15:55
faassenI mean, is your application a web application which programmatically presents pages..15:55
faassenor is there also content in there?15:55
scherandthere is content. like information about the conference venue, for example15:56
faassenanyway, unlike Zope 2, Zope 3 doesn't have an out of the box way to organize things through the ZMI.15:56
scherandbut what i think points to where i am struggling is this15:56
faassenanyway, in Zope 3,  you might design an application that..15:56
scherandthe magic word: zmi15:56
scherandi am coming from zope2 :)15:56
faassenanyway, in Zope 2 you have systems like Plone or Silva or Squishdot.15:57
faassenthat you basically add the root to the Zope 2 root in the ZMI.15:57
faassenand then everything inside those applications is managed by those applications. well, broadly speaking.15:57
faassenthey have their own UIs and such.15:57
faassenin Zope 3 you'd have a similar design. you'd write an application object, like, ConferenceSite.15:57
scheranddo i set my whole "site" up by creating one "object" (the package i programmed) in the zmi?15:57
scherandi think you lead exactly the way i was looking for!15:58
faassenand you make it so that when it is created it gets filled (from some source of data) with institutions, people, etc.15:58
faassenyeah, you set it up in one big go.15:58
faassenfor now you could hardcode the information you need to be in there in Python.15:58
scherandTHAT was my question, i think :)15:58
faasseneventually you could create  UI so people can enter this information.15:58
faassenin some cases it makes sense to create subobjects to the site object.15:59
faassenlike, you make the application object be a folder, and you have a subfolder called 'persons'15:59
faassenand a person in there is a person object containing informationa bout a person.15:59
faassenwhat's nice about such a person object is that you can give it a schema and have a form generated automatically, etc.15:59
scherandbut this you would do only if necessary?15:59
faassenand then you can still give your application object some API..15:59
faassenwell, that's different from code layout. I was spekaing more from the perspective of how you lay out your code.16:00
faassennot how you lay out your data.16:00
scherandso it can work with others (through the api)?16:00
faassenI didn't understand your question entirely.16:00
faassenanyway, I have to be going, have a meeting coming up about now.16:00
faassenso I have to be quiet for now.16:00
scherandthanks a lot?16:00
andrew_mwe need to rescue some data from a zope object data base (Image objects). FTP and HTTP don't work anymore (we assumes it is because of the object names). any alternatives?16:00
faassenyou're welcome, I hope it helps you along the way. getting the application design pattenrs in your head is tricky.16:00
scherandi'll try :)16:01
faassenandrew_m: start the zope using.. hm..I forget, debug mode? there's some option to make you enter a python prompt.16:01
faassenandrew_m: then just open stuff manually and dig out the image object and save stuff to a file.16:01
andrew_mfaassen: good idea :) thanks16:01
benjifaassen: zopectl debug16:01
faassenandrew_m: what benji says.16:02
andrew_mthanks heaps!16:02
benjiandrew_m: when you get a python prompt look at the "root" object, it's the root of your object space16:05
benjiit's a mapping, use it to dig around16:05
andrew_mok.. from there i should be able to get there using root['blah']['blub'], right?16:05
benjiand if you want to get rid of an offending object (probably after backing up your database first) use del  root['blah']['blub']16:06
andrew_mis reneaming the objects this way a good idea?16:06
andrew_mah, yeah.. deleting is good enough16:07
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rockyhey, when chaining together formlib-based forms such that the whole process isn't valid until the last form has been submitted, where do you all typically store the interim data gathered on the all-but-last forms ?17:39
timtehidden fields in the form is one way17:41
rockystuffing the values in the session is of course another way17:42
timtebut not restful?  :)17:44
* timte hardly knows what that means17:44
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ignastimte: storing something in the page itself is not restful too17:53
timteok I thought it was only about state on the server17:54
ignasit's more about bookmarkability17:55
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ignasmost of the time if you can't bookmark something close the window, start another browser, open the same url and get the same result - it's not restive17:56
ignasif you'd want it perfectly restive you could make the state of the form accessible in some way, give an ID for every incomplete process and store it in ZODB17:57
ignaswith some expiration logic17:57
ignasso at the end of the day one could just bookmark the form in the middle of the process, shut down the PC go home, and continue everything next morning17:58
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runyagaTheuni, ?23:56

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