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| philiKON | hmmmm. Teppanyaki | 00:02 |
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| scherand | hi eveyone. can somebody help me try to understand some conceptual things about zope3? i am wondering how i decide where the "boundary" between two products(?)/modules(?) is or should be. | 15:44 |
| scherand | let me give an example: | 15:45 |
| scherand | let's say i have a site that lets me organise (scientific) conferences. the site might be more than this, but this also | 15:45 |
| scherand | now i have a list/set of persons i know about that could participate at the conferences i organise. these people work in certain institutes. | 15:46 |
| *** MJ has quit IRC | 15:46 | |
| scherand | so i have kind of three "objects": persons, institutions and conferences. people have a relation to institutions and coferences. | 15:47 |
| scherand | how many "modules" do i use? one (containing persons, institutions and conferences)? two (one containing people and institutions and one for conferences)? or three (one each)? | 15:48 |
| faassen | what do you mean by 'module'? | 15:48 |
| faassen | as in a python module? foo.py | 15:48 |
| faassen | anyway, in general if you design an application, my experience is to not break it up until it actually becomes easier to manage or extend broken up. | 15:49 |
| scherand | all the files that reside in a directory. is this a package in pyhton-talk? | 15:49 |
| faassen | okay, let's talk about python packages and modules, and projects for good measure, first. | 15:49 |
| scherand | sorry :) | 15:49 |
| faassen | a python module is a .py file that can be imported by Python. | 15:49 |
| faassen | that's okay. | 15:49 |
| faassen | to be imported by Python it needs to be on the python path, typically. | 15:50 |
| scherand | right | 15:50 |
| faassen | a python package is a directory with a __init__.py in it. python recognizes that directory as importable, just like a module, if it's on the python path. | 15:50 |
| faassen | it can contain sub packages and modules. | 15:50 |
| scherand | ok | 15:50 |
| faassen | typically a modern python application consists of a package which contains the code, plus a few small scripts to get the whole thing started that reside outside the package. | 15:51 |
| faassen | if the application is really small, it may however be just all be in a single module. | 15:51 |
| faassen | for a zope 3 application, you can safely assume you always use packages, though. | 15:51 |
| faassen | now as to the word 'project'. | 15:51 |
| faassen | a package part of a project, but a project isn't only the package. | 15:51 |
| faassen | a project is more than that, may contain a python setup.py, a README.txt, a change log, etc. | 15:51 |
| scherand | on what level you usually have the things you then "use" in zope3? package, right? | 15:51 |
| faassen | they're packages, yeah. | 15:52 |
| faassen | anyway, to finish the project discussion, for intsance the thing you get when you check out Zope 3 from svn is not a package, it's a project. | 15:52 |
| faassen | which contains a whole bunch of packages under 'src' | 15:52 |
| faassen | anyway, then as a general tip in application design, don't factor stuff into different parts until you need to. | 15:53 |
| faassen | as only then will you be sure what needs to be in different places. | 15:53 |
| faassen | and you don't end up with a lot of small modules not pulling their weight. | 15:53 |
| scherand | ok | 15:53 |
| faassen | so, what you could do in the zope 3 case, is a package | 15:53 |
| faassen | and then containing a single module, let's call it core.py | 15:53 |
| faassen | and you put everything you need into that for now. | 15:53 |
| faassen | of course eventually you may need to separate the web frontend stuff away from the implementation stuff. | 15:54 |
| faassen | and the interface definitions away from the implementation too. | 15:54 |
| faassen | and templates are going to be somewhere in the package called .pt too. | 15:54 |
| faassen | and then there are typical ways to organize a zope 3 package. | 15:54 |
| faassen | but that's not application specific. | 15:54 |
| faassen | as to your application specific stuff, keep everything together for now. | 15:54 |
| scherand | so my whole site would be *one* package? organised as one typically does, but one folder, so to speak. | 15:54 |
| faassen | and only when the application grows and you see logical units split it. | 15:54 |
| faassen | hm.. | 15:55 |
| faassen | you say 'site' | 15:55 |
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| faassen | I'm trying to understand what you mean by the word 'site' here. | 15:55 |
| scherand | let me try | 15:55 |
| faassen | I mean, is your application a web application which programmatically presents pages.. | 15:55 |
| faassen | or is there also content in there? | 15:55 |
| scherand | there is content. like information about the conference venue, for example | 15:56 |
| faassen | right. | 15:56 |
| faassen | anyway, unlike Zope 2, Zope 3 doesn't have an out of the box way to organize things through the ZMI. | 15:56 |
| scherand | but what i think points to where i am struggling is this | 15:56 |
| faassen | yes. | 15:56 |
| scherand | right | 15:56 |
| faassen | anyway, in Zope 3, you might design an application that.. | 15:56 |
| scherand | the magic word: zmi | 15:56 |
| scherand | i am coming from zope2 :) | 15:56 |
| faassen | right. | 15:56 |
| faassen | anyway, in Zope 2 you have systems like Plone or Silva or Squishdot. | 15:57 |
| faassen | that you basically add the root to the Zope 2 root in the ZMI. | 15:57 |
| faassen | and then everything inside those applications is managed by those applications. well, broadly speaking. | 15:57 |
| faassen | they have their own UIs and such. | 15:57 |
| faassen | in Zope 3 you'd have a similar design. you'd write an application object, like, ConferenceSite. | 15:57 |
| scherand | do i set my whole "site" up by creating one "object" (the package i programmed) in the zmi? | 15:57 |
| scherand | i think you lead exactly the way i was looking for! | 15:58 |
| faassen | and you make it so that when it is created it gets filled (from some source of data) with institutions, people, etc. | 15:58 |
| faassen | yeah, you set it up in one big go. | 15:58 |
| faassen | for now you could hardcode the information you need to be in there in Python. | 15:58 |
| scherand | THAT was my question, i think :) | 15:58 |
| faassen | eventually you could create UI so people can enter this information. | 15:58 |
| faassen | in some cases it makes sense to create subobjects to the site object. | 15:59 |
| faassen | like, you make the application object be a folder, and you have a subfolder called 'persons' | 15:59 |
| faassen | and a person in there is a person object containing informationa bout a person. | 15:59 |
| scherand | right | 15:59 |
| faassen | what's nice about such a person object is that you can give it a schema and have a form generated automatically, etc. | 15:59 |
| scherand | but this you would do only if necessary? | 15:59 |
| faassen | and then you can still give your application object some API.. | 15:59 |
| faassen | well, that's different from code layout. I was spekaing more from the perspective of how you lay out your code. | 16:00 |
| faassen | not how you lay out your data. | 16:00 |
| scherand | so it can work with others (through the api)? | 16:00 |
| faassen | I didn't understand your question entirely. | 16:00 |
| faassen | anyway, I have to be going, have a meeting coming up about now. | 16:00 |
| faassen | so I have to be quiet for now. | 16:00 |
| scherand | thanks a lot? | 16:00 |
| scherand | ! | 16:00 |
| andrew_m | we need to rescue some data from a zope object data base (Image objects). FTP and HTTP don't work anymore (we assumes it is because of the object names). any alternatives? | 16:00 |
| faassen | you're welcome, I hope it helps you along the way. getting the application design pattenrs in your head is tricky. | 16:00 |
| scherand | i'll try :) | 16:01 |
| faassen | andrew_m: start the zope using.. hm..I forget, debug mode? there's some option to make you enter a python prompt. | 16:01 |
| faassen | andrew_m: then just open stuff manually and dig out the image object and save stuff to a file. | 16:01 |
| andrew_m | faassen: good idea :) thanks | 16:01 |
| benji | faassen: zopectl debug | 16:01 |
| faassen | andrew_m: what benji says. | 16:02 |
| andrew_m | thanks heaps! | 16:02 |
| benji | andrew_m: when you get a python prompt look at the "root" object, it's the root of your object space | 16:05 |
| benji | it's a mapping, use it to dig around | 16:05 |
| andrew_m | ok.. from there i should be able to get there using root['blah']['blub'], right? | 16:05 |
| benji | exactly | 16:06 |
| benji | and if you want to get rid of an offending object (probably after backing up your database first) use del root['blah']['blub'] | 16:06 |
| andrew_m | is reneaming the objects this way a good idea? | 16:06 |
| andrew_m | ah, yeah.. deleting is good enough | 16:07 |
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| rocky | hey, when chaining together formlib-based forms such that the whole process isn't valid until the last form has been submitted, where do you all typically store the interim data gathered on the all-but-last forms ? | 17:39 |
| timte | hidden fields in the form is one way | 17:41 |
| rocky | stuffing the values in the session is of course another way | 17:42 |
| timte | but not restful? :) | 17:44 |
| * timte hardly knows what that means | 17:44 | |
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| ignas | timte: storing something in the page itself is not restful too | 17:53 |
| timte | ok I thought it was only about state on the server | 17:54 |
| ignas | it's more about bookmarkability | 17:55 |
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| ignas | most of the time if you can't bookmark something close the window, start another browser, open the same url and get the same result - it's not restive | 17:56 |
| ignas | if you'd want it perfectly restive you could make the state of the form accessible in some way, give an ID for every incomplete process and store it in ZODB | 17:57 |
| ignas | with some expiration logic | 17:57 |
| ignas | so at the end of the day one could just bookmark the form in the middle of the process, shut down the PC go home, and continue everything next morning | 17:58 |
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| runyaga | Theuni, ? | 23:56 |
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