IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2007-03-23

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baijumTheuni, is zope.classiczoperecipe (used in Zope3.buildout) available for download ?07:51
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Theunibaijum: no, it's not been written yet08:39
Theunii want to take a look at your recipe that you did to get a zope app running08:40
Theunihowever, the classiczoperecipe needs to do a bit more than just setting up an instance08:40
Theunithe hard parts will be to provide the scripts that migrate old zope 3 instances to the egg release08:40
Theunimeaning to replace the old ctl scripts08:40
baijumTheuni, I was looking at Zope3.buildout now08:40
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baijumTheuni, I was wondering do we need this Zope3.buildout for 3.4 at all, let's use zpkg for this release too ?08:43
baijumas you mentioned in this page: we will be having to type of release one eggs available from another zpkg based08:45
baijumthen deprecate this zpkg release08:45
baijumafter 3.6 we will stop zpkg based release08:45
baijummay be we can give some migration scripts now itself08:46
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Theunibaijum: na, if we want to stop doing normal releases (and this has not been decided yet, but we imaging it will happen) then we should be doing egg-based release ASAP09:00
TheuniOTOH we're doing time-based releases, so this probably won't make it into the release then09:01
Theunii need to check my schedule09:01
baijumAnyway, I cann't find any particular adavatage for micking zpkg based release using zc.buildout09:05
* baijum leaving for lunch09:07
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* baijum is back09:32
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* baijum send a mail for further discussion about 3.4 release10:11
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Theunibaijum: thanks for spurring the discussion!10:34
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baijumTheuni, np10:42
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* baijum leaving Bangalore tonight, see you all Monday !15:10
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derek_richardsonare viewlet managers used in the rotterdam skin? I have been unable to find their declarations in zcml (grep for viewletManager). My goal is to plug a new viewlet into rotterdam.16:44
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softdevra template that I've bound to a form is just outputting the template page unprocessed - any ideas why?19:42
ccombhow did you bind it to the form ?19:43
softdevrusing the ViewPageTemplateFile19:43
ccombin __call__ ?19:44
softdevrtemplate = ViewPageTemplate('
mgedminis that a formlib form, or old style form?19:46
softdevrformlib form19:46
mgedminlooks ok ...19:47
mgedminperhaps paste the whole class to so that we can take a look at the code?19:47
ccombmaybe the pb is in the template19:48
ccombmissing xmlns ?19:48
softdevri've include tal and metal ns19:49
softdevrlooking at the class, i've only set form_fields and template19:51
softdevrand class inherits from form.EditForm19:52
ccombI use the same thing and I've never seen an unprocessed template yet19:52
softdevr - template19:55
softdevrbut template not working even if it only contains the form tags19:56
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softdevrwith nothing inside it19:56 → xml.zope.org19:57
mgedminwell, it should include the widgets and form actions at least, if you want it to do something19:57
ccombxmlns:tal is wrong19:57
mgedminusually you don't have to specify xml namespaces in <html> templates19:59
softdevrthat was it. apologies.19:59
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ccombmgedmin: where do you put namespaces?20:00
mgedmin4 confirmations to restore a backup20:01
mgedminoops, wrong channel20:01
mgedminccomb: I don't20:01
mgedminpage templates have two parsers: xml parser and html parser20:02
mgedminhtml parser recognizes tal: and metal: without any xml namespace declarations20:02
ccombok, I didnt know20:03
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mgedminother than that, everything looks good20:04
softdevrdo you guys use zope3 solely for web apps?20:06
softdevranyone use rails, pylons, django, grok etc. too?20:06
* mgedmin uses only zope 320:07
* mgedmin would like to try turbogears some time20:07
softdevrcan i ask the type of apps you develop, and what stirred your interest in turbogears20:08
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ccombonly zope3 too20:10
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ccombdon"t have time to learn everything20:12
ccomb(although I'd like to)20:13
softdevryeah, I'm wondering what kind of developments zope3 is most suited to20:13
softdevrare a lot of you guys devloping schooltool-type apps20:13
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ccombI believe z3 is ideal for custom complex apps built from scratch20:14
ccombfor everything else there are ready-to-use apps20:15
ccomb(Or even simple apps, btw)20:15
softdevryeah.  but the value of the component architecture isn't going to be seen when developing websites for various businesses - where your development is not concentrated on one or a handful of products20:18
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softdevrthat is my situation so I guess rails, pylons is more suitable20:21
ktwilight_really depends on what you are building, i think.20:22
* mgedmin ponders the taxonomy of web apps20:22
mgedmindunno, just web apps... zodb, bunch of objects, bunch of views, various forms, etc.20:22
mgedminthe design choices of turbogears match my mind, from what I've read about it20:23
mgedminI have some doubts about its maturity20:23
ccombwhat i like in z3 is that everything is included20:24
ccomband I particularly like the zodb20:24
softdevri like the sound of the little i've read of sqlalchemy20:25
softdevran oodb is limiting as your data set grows big, no?20:26
ktwilight_it's not as if sql database won't grow when you have lots of data20:27
ccombin both case, everything depends on how the app is built20:28
mgedminI've heard of people using zodb with hundreds of gigs of data20:28
softdevrno, but data normalisation and retrieval performance would be better with a rdb for large data?20:29
mgedminthe weak point of zodb is lack of explicit data schema, I think20:29
mgedminyou have to be very careful when you change the code to make sure your existing databases continue to work20:29
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softdevryeah, true20:30
ccombthat's what generations are made for20:30
ccombYou can write a migration script in a few line20:30
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softdevri was surprised that there is no sql equivalent20:31
ccombI've noticed that people (and me too) tend to ask questions for zodb they wouldn't ask for rdb20:32
softdevrlike what?20:33
ccomblike performance, or concurrent access, or threading, etc.20:33
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Theunii have a pet project in my radar to make query performance a lot better20:43
Theunii'm researching still, though.20:44
ccombWhat is it about?20:46
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Theuniit's about providing query support, initially via regular path expressions, then xpath, then maybe sql to the zodb21:07
Theunithe major issue is to provide an efficient structual index for the object relations in the database21:08
softdevrhow is that currently stored?21:10
J1mman, the gui editor sucks. :(21:10
J1mOh god, but not as bad as the text markup. :(21:11
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TheuniJ1m: what editor? what markup?21:20
J1mOh, sorry21:21
J1mwrong irc window21:21
J1mmoin moin21:21
Theuniah. np. :)21:21
Theunisoftdevr: the structure is stored in a "native" form as i would call it.21:21
Theunihowever, to efficiently query for the structure, you have to traverse the object graph to find out whether one object is a 'child' of another21:22
Theuniin the case of the ZODB the predicate "child" is a ambigious, though.21:23
Theunibut there are index structures around that allow to answer this question in O(1) without touching the object graph at all and indexing isn't too expensive as well.21:23
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mgedminI had a Object Oriented DB course in the uni21:26
mgedminObject Query Language is very very similar to Python list comprehensions21:26
TheuniWe were just at CeBit and those 15-17 year old kids walk up to us and tell us their teacher decided to use ZODB because they are learning python programming as object oriented programming in school and he said it didn't make any sense to him to store objects in a relational database ;)21:27
Theuni(The DZUG had a Zope booth at the trade show ... :) )21:27
Theunimgedmin: I wanted to start with something simple, so IMHO regular path expressions are easier to handle for query parsing and query planning21:28
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ccombTheuni: is what you're speaking about close to zc.relationship?21:37
ccomb(where you can index relations and do complex transitive queries)21:38
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Theuniactually not21:45
TheuniI'm thinking about doing this on a pure database level. zc.relationship is on a higher level. I know zc.relationship but haven't thought about using it this way.21:46
TheuniThe problem about those is that you can not do ad-hoc queries21:46
Theuniyou have to prepare an index and use code in your application that updates the index and uses the relationships.21:47
TheuniI want to be able to query any object data.21:47
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TheuniI'm not sure whether it will be really useful or even sufficiently fast in the end, but hey, that's why it's a pet project and it's called research ;)21:48
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