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| baijum | Theuni, is zope.classiczoperecipe (used in Zope3.buildout) available for download ? | 07:51 |
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| Theuni | baijum: no, it's not been written yet | 08:39 |
| Theuni | i want to take a look at your recipe that you did to get a zope app running | 08:40 |
| Theuni | however, the classiczoperecipe needs to do a bit more than just setting up an instance | 08:40 |
| Theuni | the hard parts will be to provide the scripts that migrate old zope 3 instances to the egg release | 08:40 |
| Theuni | meaning to replace the old ctl scripts | 08:40 |
| baijum | Theuni, I was looking at Zope3.buildout now | 08:40 |
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| baijum | Theuni, I was wondering do we need this Zope3.buildout for 3.4 at all, let's use zpkg for this release too ? | 08:43 |
| baijum | as you mentioned in this page: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/DefiningZope34Release we will be having to type of release one eggs available from download.zope.org another zpkg based | 08:45 |
| baijum | then deprecate this zpkg release | 08:45 |
| baijum | after 3.6 we will stop zpkg based release | 08:45 |
| baijum | may be we can give some migration scripts now itself | 08:46 |
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| Theuni | baijum: na, if we want to stop doing normal releases (and this has not been decided yet, but we imaging it will happen) then we should be doing egg-based release ASAP | 09:00 |
| Theuni | OTOH we're doing time-based releases, so this probably won't make it into the release then | 09:01 |
| Theuni | i need to check my schedule | 09:01 |
| baijum | Anyway, I cann't find any particular adavatage for micking zpkg based release using zc.buildout | 09:05 |
| baijum | advantage | 09:05 |
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| Theuni | hmm | 09:25 |
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| Theuni | baijum: thanks for spurring the discussion! | 10:34 |
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| baijum | Theuni, np | 10:42 |
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| derek_richardson | are viewlet managers used in the rotterdam skin? I have been unable to find their declarations in zcml (grep for viewletManager). My goal is to plug a new viewlet into rotterdam. | 16:44 |
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| softdevr | a template that I've bound to a form is just outputting the template page unprocessed - any ideas why? | 19:42 |
| ccomb | how did you bind it to the form ? | 19:43 |
| softdevr | using the ViewPageTemplateFile | 19:43 |
| ccomb | in __call__ ? | 19:44 |
| softdevr | template = ViewPageTemplate('template.pt) | 19:46 |
| mgedmin | is that a formlib form, or old style form? | 19:46 |
| softdevr | formlib form | 19:46 |
| mgedmin | hm | 19:47 |
| mgedmin | looks ok ... | 19:47 |
| mgedmin | perhaps paste the whole class to http://pastey.net/ so that we can take a look at the code? | 19:47 |
| ccomb | maybe the pb is in the template | 19:48 |
| ccomb | missing xmlns ? | 19:48 |
| softdevr | i've include tal and metal ns | 19:49 |
| softdevr | looking at the class, i've only set form_fields and template | 19:51 |
| softdevr | and class inherits from form.EditForm | 19:52 |
| ccomb | I use the same thing and I've never seen an unprocessed template yet | 19:52 |
| softdevr | http://pastey.net/9064 - template | 19:55 |
| softdevr | but template not working even if it only contains the form tags | 19:56 |
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| softdevr | with nothing inside it | 19:56 |
| ccomb | www.xml.zope.org → xml.zope.org | 19:57 |
| mgedmin | well, it should include the widgets and form actions at least, if you want it to do something | 19:57 |
| ccomb | xmlns:tal is wrong | 19:57 |
| mgedmin | usually you don't have to specify xml namespaces in <html> templates | 19:59 |
| softdevr | that was it. apologies. | 19:59 |
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| ccomb | mgedmin: where do you put namespaces? | 20:00 |
| mgedmin | 4 confirmations to restore a backup | 20:01 |
| mgedmin | oops, wrong channel | 20:01 |
| mgedmin | ccomb: I don't | 20:01 |
| mgedmin | page templates have two parsers: xml parser and html parser | 20:02 |
| mgedmin | html parser recognizes tal: and metal: without any xml namespace declarations | 20:02 |
| ccomb | ok, I didnt know | 20:03 |
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| mgedmin | other than that, everything looks good | 20:04 |
| softdevr | do you guys use zope3 solely for web apps? | 20:06 |
| softdevr | anyone use rails, pylons, django, grok etc. too? | 20:06 |
| * mgedmin uses only zope 3 | 20:07 | |
| * mgedmin would like to try turbogears some time | 20:07 | |
| softdevr | can i ask the type of apps you develop, and what stirred your interest in turbogears | 20:08 |
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| ccomb | only zope3 too | 20:10 |
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| ccomb | don"t have time to learn everything | 20:12 |
| ccomb | (although I'd like to) | 20:13 |
| softdevr | yeah, I'm wondering what kind of developments zope3 is most suited to | 20:13 |
| softdevr | are a lot of you guys devloping schooltool-type apps | 20:13 |
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| ccomb | I believe z3 is ideal for custom complex apps built from scratch | 20:14 |
| ccomb | for everything else there are ready-to-use apps | 20:15 |
| ccomb | (Or even simple apps, btw) | 20:15 |
| softdevr | yeah. but the value of the component architecture isn't going to be seen when developing websites for various businesses - where your development is not concentrated on one or a handful of products | 20:18 |
| ktwilight_ | true | 20:20 |
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| softdevr | that is my situation so I guess rails, pylons is more suitable | 20:21 |
| ktwilight_ | really depends on what you are building, i think. | 20:22 |
| * mgedmin ponders the taxonomy of web apps | 20:22 | |
| mgedmin | dunno, just web apps... zodb, bunch of objects, bunch of views, various forms, etc. | 20:22 |
| mgedmin | the design choices of turbogears match my mind, from what I've read about it | 20:23 |
| mgedmin | I have some doubts about its maturity | 20:23 |
| ccomb | what i like in z3 is that everything is included | 20:24 |
| ccomb | and I particularly like the zodb | 20:24 |
| softdevr | i like the sound of the little i've read of sqlalchemy | 20:25 |
| softdevr | an oodb is limiting as your data set grows big, no? | 20:26 |
| ktwilight_ | it's not as if sql database won't grow when you have lots of data | 20:27 |
| ccomb | in both case, everything depends on how the app is built | 20:28 |
| mgedmin | I've heard of people using zodb with hundreds of gigs of data | 20:28 |
| softdevr | no, but data normalisation and retrieval performance would be better with a rdb for large data? | 20:29 |
| mgedmin | the weak point of zodb is lack of explicit data schema, I think | 20:29 |
| mgedmin | you have to be very careful when you change the code to make sure your existing databases continue to work | 20:29 |
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| softdevr | yeah, true | 20:30 |
| ccomb | that's what generations are made for | 20:30 |
| ccomb | You can write a migration script in a few line | 20:30 |
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| softdevr | i was surprised that there is no sql equivalent | 20:31 |
| ccomb | I've noticed that people (and me too) tend to ask questions for zodb they wouldn't ask for rdb | 20:32 |
| softdevr | like what? | 20:33 |
| ccomb | like performance, or concurrent access, or threading, etc. | 20:33 |
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| Theuni | i have a pet project in my radar to make query performance a lot better | 20:43 |
| Theuni | i'm researching still, though. | 20:44 |
| ccomb | What is it about? | 20:46 |
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| Theuni | it's about providing query support, initially via regular path expressions, then xpath, then maybe sql to the zodb | 21:07 |
| Theuni | the major issue is to provide an efficient structual index for the object relations in the database | 21:08 |
| softdevr | how is that currently stored? | 21:10 |
| J1m | man, the gui editor sucks. :( | 21:10 |
| J1m | Oh god, but not as bad as the text markup. :( | 21:11 |
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| Theuni | J1m: what editor? what markup? | 21:20 |
| J1m | Oh, sorry | 21:21 |
| J1m | wrong irc window | 21:21 |
| J1m | moin moin | 21:21 |
| J1m | :) | 21:21 |
| Theuni | ah. np. :) | 21:21 |
| Theuni | softdevr: the structure is stored in a "native" form as i would call it. | 21:21 |
| Theuni | however, to efficiently query for the structure, you have to traverse the object graph to find out whether one object is a 'child' of another | 21:22 |
| Theuni | in the case of the ZODB the predicate "child" is a ambigious, though. | 21:23 |
| Theuni | but there are index structures around that allow to answer this question in O(1) without touching the object graph at all and indexing isn't too expensive as well. | 21:23 |
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| mgedmin | I had a Object Oriented DB course in the uni | 21:26 |
| Theuni | cool | 21:26 |
| mgedmin | Object Query Language is very very similar to Python list comprehensions | 21:26 |
| Theuni | We were just at CeBit and those 15-17 year old kids walk up to us and tell us their teacher decided to use ZODB because they are learning python programming as object oriented programming in school and he said it didn't make any sense to him to store objects in a relational database ;) | 21:27 |
| Theuni | (The DZUG had a Zope booth at the trade show ... :) ) | 21:27 |
| Theuni | mgedmin: I wanted to start with something simple, so IMHO regular path expressions are easier to handle for query parsing and query planning | 21:28 |
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| ccomb | Theuni: is what you're speaking about close to zc.relationship? | 21:37 |
| ccomb | (where you can index relations and do complex transitive queries) | 21:38 |
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| Theuni | actually not | 21:45 |
| Theuni | I'm thinking about doing this on a pure database level. zc.relationship is on a higher level. I know zc.relationship but haven't thought about using it this way. | 21:46 |
| Theuni | The problem about those is that you can not do ad-hoc queries | 21:46 |
| Theuni | you have to prepare an index and use code in your application that updates the index and uses the relationships. | 21:47 |
| Theuni | I want to be able to query any object data. | 21:47 |
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| Theuni | I'm not sure whether it will be really useful or even sufficiently fast in the end, but hey, that's why it's a pet project and it's called research ;) | 21:48 |
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