IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2007-03-29

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febb_hey Philip !07:58
febb_how are you now ?07:58
philiKONi'm good, thank you08:03
philiKONback in .de since yesterday08:03
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febb_I'm glad you are ok now.   how was your trip ?08:15
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philiKONfebb: tiring08:19
philiKONfebb: took pretty much 24 hours08:19
febbyeah, thats a lot for traveling... you flew direct from  MC to DE ?08:20
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philiKONfebb: no08:25
philiKONfebb: MEX - IAD - FRA - DRS08:25
philiKON(IAD is washington dulles)08:25
febbyeah, I know.08:26
febblong trip.   well, glad you are @ your home now and well.08:26
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febbwell, time to logoff  ... ttyl !     :)08:47
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baijumoh! great!!
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SteveAphiliKON: ping11:39
SteveAbaijum: hi11:40
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philiKONSteveA: pong11:41
baijumSteveA, hi11:45
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baijumSteveA, please see the private message11:55
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* baijum reported a bug in new tracker :)13:06
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timtecongratulations, guess you are the first  :)13:08
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ChrisWheya, zope.testing is a "zope 3" project as far as reporting bugs, etc, goes, right?15:09
ChrisWcool, where's the issue tracker now?15:10
ChrisWlooks like the one is disbaled for new issues but no clue as to where to go for the new one :-(15:10
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ChrisWcould someone put in some text to warn of that change?15:11
philiKONi would if i had permissions15:12
ChrisWwhat's your username?15:12
philiKONwe should really do a rewrite rule15:13
philiKONi think there's a launchpad url to get the bugs using the old collector number15:13
philiKONso we could really do an easy rewrite rule15:13
philiKONChrisW: hmm, i guess i'm already a manager in the collector15:15
philiKONthough i have no clue where to change its properties15:15
SteveAit's possible to set up a redirect15:15
SteveAfrom an invidual bug in the collector to a bug in launchpad15:16
SteveAjim has the details15:16
SteveAjust needs some apache or siteroot work15:16
philiKONi'll bug him15:16
SteveAanyone here want to be in the launchpad beta-testers team, to use the new UI >?15:16
philiKONwould love to see the new UI15:16
philiKONi find the current one a bit... confusing :)15:17
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philiKONhi benji15:17
benjihey, philiKON15:18
ChrisWhmm, in launchpad is there no way to classify a bug when you submit it?15:18
ChrisWI wanted to put in my issues as a "feature with patch"15:18
philiKONthere are tags15:19
philiKONthere's a tag feature+solution15:19
ChrisWhow do I know what the list of tags is?15:19
philiKONit's on
ChrisWSteveA: you still doing launchpad development?15:20
ChrisWgood stuff15:21
ChrisWthat tag list really should be available somewhere near the box you type a tag into...15:21
SteveAChrisW: you should be using the new UI15:21
SteveAwhich we're beta testing15:21
ChrisWwill it give me access to the current data?15:21
SteveAtell me your launchpad id, and tell me you'll not post screenshots publicly15:22
ChrisW(or is it a test data set?)15:22
SteveAand I'll add you to the group using the beta server15:22
ChrisWanswer my question first ;-)15:22
SteveAit redirects you from the main service, and uses the same database15:22
ChrisWgood stuff15:22
ChrisWChrisW is the id15:22
philiKONSteveA: can you add me too, pls? :)15:22
ChrisWbizarrely, with the old ui, clicking on "feature+solution" when not signed in shows only 6 issues, none of which is mine15:23
SteveAChrisW: that's "chris walker"15:23
ChrisWwhen I am logged in, it shows 10, none of which are mine15:23
ChrisWwell, it's got my password15:23
ChrisWand it's the account I've been using15:23
ChrisWah, you meant my email address, nto what it shows on the ui?15:24
SteveAwhat URL do you get when you click on your name15:24
SteveAtop right15:24
ChrisWbut it shows ChrisW as my name15:24
philiKONyou set ChrisW as your real name apparently15:24
SteveAChrisW: done.  thanks for agreeing not to post screenshots.15:24
ChrisWno worries, I'll play nice15:24
ChrisWso i should have nice ui now?15:25
SteveAphiliKON: I can make you an administrator of the beta testers team, so you can add zope3 developers, if you like15:25
ChrisWoo, veyr spangly15:25
ChrisWand solves at least one of the issues I just whined about ;-)15:25
philiKONSteveA: if you like15:25
philiKONSteveA: i'm sure at least the grok dev's would like it15:26
SteveAphiliKON: the main rule is that people agree to keep the UI private until we decide to release it publicly15:26
SteveAphiliKON: what's your launchpad id?15:27
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projekt01baijum, ayt?15:48
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baijumprojekt01, yes15:48
projekt01did you change the z3c.layer skin package?15:49
baijumprojekt01, nope15:49
projekt01Or do you know how has the svn nick ssh?15:49
philiKONstefan holek15:50
philiKONit's shh, though15:50
projekt01This ftesting refactorings are not compatible with the existing trunk.15:50
philiKONprojekt01: take a look at the checkins list :)15:50
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philiKONprojekt01: he's lurker on IRC15:50
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lurkerprojekt01: existing trunk of what?15:52
projekt01The new ftesting config registers duplicated items15:52
projekt01It doesn't run within the Zope3 tests15:53
lurkerprojekt01: you need to get rid of the ftesting slugs in /etc/package-includes15:53
projekt01Since whenn is the in the Zope3 trunk deprecated?15:54
philiKONwhy would it be?15:54
projekt01Your refactoring will only work if you are using build  out or, right?15:54
projekt01the normal trunk checkout can't run tests anymore15:55
projekt01if you include 3rd party packages via svn:externals15:55
projekt01like z3c.layer15:56
lurkerz3c.layer does not have ftesting slugs anymore, so make will not copy the to etc/package-includes15:56
lurkerif you still have some in your instance, get rid of them15:56
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philiKONprojekt01: you guys have the weirdest way of deploying paackages15:56
philiKONyou're creating a new external in Zope3/src ?15:56
philiKONlurker: i bet they're not even using instances ;)15:56
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baijumprojekt01, first do a make clean and then make again15:57
projekt01philiKON, no we do not use a build script which is needed to get a running checkout, it's all done in SVN15:57
projekt01bajim, I don't need to write scripts for that, this part is left out in our setup, it's easier then everything15:58
projekt01Just using the power of Subversion.15:58
baijumprojekt01, the problem is a generated ZCML file which you had earlier, just removing it should work fine15:59
projekt01Ok, I try that15:59
philiKONmake clean; make did it for me16:00
projekt01I guess you mean I have to remove the configure.zcml in the test folder of z3c.layer.minimal16:01
jodokphiliKON: do you know who is in charge of z3c.jsonserver?16:01
jodokphiliKON: it's on codespeak and no-one seems to take care of it.16:02
philiKONsigh, i wish people would write README.txt and :(16:02
philiKONjodok: ah, you mean jsonserver16:02
philiKONjodok: that's not in 'z3c' :)16:02
jodoki'm doing that for jsonserver right now :)16:02
jodokany objection to move it to if we take care about it?16:02
jodokor who has the position to object? :)16:02
baijumprojekt01, ZCML file in your etc/package-includes16:03
philiKONthat's neither my decision nor your decision to make16:03
projekt01baijum, philiKON, Is that a mistake and the test folder doesn't need a configure.zcml?16:03
philiKONjodok: jim washington wrote it, apparently16:03
projekt01no the tests folder contains a configure.zcml16:03
philiKONjodok: let's leave it on codespeak for now. i can give you commit rights16:03
philiKONprojekt01: you need to remove the -ftesting.zcml slug16:03
philiKONin your package-includes16:04
projekt01What do you mean with "your"16:04
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baijumprojekt01, which file is conflicting for you ?16:05
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projekt01the configure.zcml in z3c.layer.minimal.tests16:05
jodokwhat's his irc nick philiKON ?16:05
projekt01Since when do we use configure.zcml in tests folder?16:06
benjiI'll note that the buildbot seems to be happy with the trunk.16:06
baijumprojekt01, that file is for functional testing using test layer16:07
projekt01The package get really messed up,. The tests folder is also included in the main configure.zcml16:07
projekt01<include package=".tests" />16:07
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jodokbenji: i'd like to add the eggified / buildoutified components to buildbot.16:08
projekt01I really don't know what you guys are trying to do with buildout?16:08
jodokbenji: we can provide our slaves for tests too, if needed16:08
projekt01I think I have to read the buildout proposal16:08
jodokprojekt01: we're switching to deployment with buildout16:08
projekt01Yup I see that, but we dodn't define that the old way isn't supported, right?16:09
projekt01If so I can switch to buold out, but I like to do that not right now if possible.16:09
benjijodok: I can send you the config for you to add your auto-buildout-discovery magic to16:10
jodokbenji: good idea :)16:10
projekt01My problem right now is, I can't fix the eggified packages if they don't work on my setup, because i don't know what the buildout really needs16:10
jodokprojekt01: well, the only thing you specify are the dependencies16:11
jodokand that's setuptools16:11
jodokbuildout adds support for testing as well.16:12
projekt01As far I can see, they use different testing setup16:12
benjijodok: it's in the mail16:12
projekt01And sometimes my setup is including both config16:12
projekt01That doesn't work16:12
* baijum just looked at z3c.layer package, it's functional testing support can be improved ...16:13
projekt01What's the right way to make sure every setup get used correctly?16:13
projekt01baijum, thanks16:13
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baijumprojekt01, I am just suggesting only ...16:14
projekt01baijum, it's just a wrong configuration. I guess this has nothing to do with ftesting.16:15
jodokprojekt01: well the tests in z3c.layer were actually broken :)16:16
jodokand noone noticed it because they were not on a layer...16:16
jodoki think lurker just fixed that16:16
projekt01the main configure includes the tests folder. The tests folder contains a configure.zcml and this includes the ftesting.zcml16:16
projekt01This means the ftesting.zcml get loaded during server start.16:17
baijumprojekt01, right16:17
projekt01Ok, no problem, go ahead with buildout ;-) (I really have to take a look at that part)16:17
projekt01thanks to all16:18
philiKON_ftests shouldn't require buildout16:18
philiKON_and including ftesting config in the main configure.zcml is just wrong16:18
philiKON_there should be an ftesting.zcml that loads all the stuff needed for ftests16:18
benjiphiliKON_: I don't understand "ftests shouldn't require buildout", can you explain a bit16:19
projekt01benji, philiKON; Aha, are I'm correct, we need to add own test layers because of the package dendencies?16:19
philiKON_benji: we shouldn't need buildout for running tests16:20
philiKON_i should be able to, say, easy_install the package and still run its tests16:20
philiKON_including its ftests16:20
benjiwhat about non-python dependencies?16:20
philiKON_buildout is just a convenient way for us to pull in dependencies etc.16:20
philiKON_benji: such as....?16:20
benjithe ones not written in Python :)16:20
projekt01So the eggification should never be incompatible with a trunk and 3rd party packages if you use a subversion checkout16:21
benjiI don't have any examples at hand that are open source16:21
projekt01This means the new testing layer setup just offers a additional python layer which is able to configure a independent test setup16:22
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benjithat's an interesting idea; it would be nice to be able to run the tests after installing an egg; it might be a pain to set up as well :\16:22
projekt01a kind of ptesting.zcml instead of ftesting.zcml ;-)16:22
philiKON_benji: well, dependencies still don't have anything to do with it16:24
philiKON_my point is, i shouldn't need buildout to run tests16:24
philiKON_as long as i have all dependencies installed16:24
philiKON_be it eggs or not16:24
philiKON_be it python or not16:24
philiKON_shouldn't matter16:24
philiKON_like projekt01, i get all my junk directly from svn16:24
philiKON_i should be able to run tests16:24
philiKON_and i am16:24
philiKON_all i'm saying is that projekt01's assumption that  specific ftesting layers are a related to buildout is not really true16:25
philiKON_it's a result of individual package dependencies16:25
benjiI don't understand; there's no change I'm aware of that's made anything less usable without using a buildout16:26
projekt01yes, I got that, but I realy dislike the duplication where we do right now.16:26
benjimany projects have become /more/ testable if you use their buildout, but none have less16:26
benjiwhat duplication?16:27
projekt01All ftesting.zcml duplicate base registration16:27
philiKON_benji: sure, sure.16:27
projekt01e.g. <include package="" />16:27
projekt01what's the benefit of them?16:27
projekt01This doesn't eighter allow me to use a own securitypolicy16:28
benjithat's more a result of proper layerification; there were many, many interdependencies before, these projects being made seperate means that those interdependencies become apparent and the layer mechanism lets us make the test config more explicit16:28
projekt01I guess you bring in hard related depedencies with this config includes16:28
projekt01That's inaceptable for. Or not?16:28
benjiyou can still use your own security policy, but the tests run agains one in particular; you could provide your own test layer with your security policy and run the tests there as well (which sounds like a good idea)16:29
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projekt01benji, ok, how can I run my test and disable this default test?16:30
projekt01benji, doesn't work, right?16:31
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philiKON_benji: my point wasn't that buildout doesn't make things easier. it certainly does. my point is that buildout gets you dependencies etc. setup automatically, but it shouldnt' dictate testing / ftesting (wich it doesn't, and that's good)16:31
benjiI don't see why it wouldn't; you don't have to run tests if you don't like them16:31
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projekt01benji, cool benefit16:32
philiKON_benji: are you talking to me or projekt01? :)16:32
benjiphiliKON_: It (currently) seems to me that the test setup is a configuration, the tests test that config; if you need to test a different config you should set that up16:32
projekt01I guess to me16:32
benjiphiliKON_: heck if I know :)16:32
philiKON_benji: which is what we're doing with our ftesting layers that load special ftesting.zcmls16:33
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projekt01But we run them by default as a unit of a package16:34
projekt01and there is no way to excude test in a package, right?16:34
philiKON_-t !regex16:35
projekt01But at all, why should a test setup bring in dependencies at all? There is no reason for that!!!16:35
philiKON_there's certainly no reason for triple exclamation marks16:35
philiKON_why should tests not have dependencies?16:35
projekt01Our dependency level in Zope3 is havy based on interfaces and not on implementations16:35
philiKON_... sooooo?16:36
projekt01The test setup should not bring in other dependencies, that's no benefit for nobody16:36
projekt01It's just the easiest way of doing16:36
benjitests have lots of dependencies, more than the code, normally; if those dependencies and configuration need to be controlled16:36
projekt01Ok, I say the way we are going is wrong16:37
benjithis might be a good discussion to bring up on the list16:39
* baijum agree with benji16:39
philiKON_projekt01: i don't get your point16:40
philiKON_ftests are *functional* tests16:40
philiKON_that means they do need *some* dependencies16:40
philiKON_some configuration of the app server at least16:40
projekt01My test setup defines <include package="" /> in a 3rd party package, But I like to use another security policy. So I can't run this test just because of the setup.16:41
philiKON_why can't you run the tests?16:42
philiKON_sure you can16:42
philiKON_i don't understand what you mean by "*my* test setup ... in a 3rd party package"16:42
philiKON_is it your package or a 3rd party one?16:42 probably dosen't exist on my server16:42
philiKON_so it's a testing dependency16:43
philiKON_you don't need it to run the software, but to test it16:43
philiKON_that's fair16:43
projekt01Yes, I say we should get rid of this "additional" dependencies16:43
projekt01This should be done on a project level16:44
philiKON_ok. you can create common ftest layers16:44
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philiKON_or create ftesting-for-my-project.zcml that's included by individual ftesting.zcml files16:45
baijumprojekt01, dependecies are not changing if you are using layer or not using it16:45
projekt01baijum, they do16:46
baijumprojekt01, how ?16:46
philiKON_baijum: he just explained16:46
projekt01If the register <include package="" />, I can only run the test if my server inlcudes this package16:46
philiKON_read up16:46
* philiKON_ thinks having optional testing dependencies isn't a problem16:47
projekt01The bad thing is they bring in base dependencies where are interesign to change16:47
philiKON_projekt01: s/where/which/ :)16:48
projekt01philiKON, there is no benefit, we just will loose well defined tests16:48
ignasanyone fluent/using zope catalog?16:48
projekt01philiKON, yup16:48
philiKON_how so?16:48
philiKON_projekt01: please realise that they don't change the actual dependencies of the package16:48
philiKON_testing dependencies != installation dependencies16:49
philiKON_projekt01: i don't understand the well-defined bit16:49
philiKON_how do we have well-defined tests in zope 3.3 and on the trunk we don't ???16:49
projekt01But then we should distribute testing as a standalone pakage16:49
projekt01I don't need modules with wrong imports on my production server.16:50
philiKON_they're only in tests16:50
philiKON_you don't execute tests on a production system16:50
philiKON_and if you want to be absolutely safe, just install
philiKON_it's not going to hurt16:51
projekt01We do16:51
philiKON_even if you're not using it16:51
projekt01It's no option to have packages on a server which are not used16:52
philiKON_this discussion isn't leading anywhere16:52
philiKON_disk space is cheap16:52
projekt01Not since we build a banking transaction system based on Zope316:52
philiKON_easy_install is easy16:52
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projekt01Ok, I will discuss this internaly and come back to this topic later16:54
* baijum thinks tests should be accompanied with code always(it's not a huge burden), because it make sure your code works always16:54
Theunime too16:54
J1mphiliKON_, I'm going to studiously avoid getting involved in this discussion, other than to note that "extras" are a crock.16:54
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Theunii do run the tests when setting something up on the production system to see that everything works.16:54
J1mI'd be happt to expplain why if prompted.16:54
philiKON_um, why?16:55
benjiyeah, why?16:55
J1mOK, there are 2 cases.16:55
J1mLet's start with "testing deepndencies".16:55
* J1m can't type16:55
Theunihuman language redundancy helps ;)16:56
J1mTesting dependencies let you specify packages that are only needed for testing.16:56
J1mso you test your software with those packages.16:56
J1mHow do you know that your software works without them?16:56
J1mYou don't.16:56
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J1mBenji likes to say "test what you fly, fly what you test". Testing dependencies violate that.16:57
philiKON_J1m: unless you manage to write more tests that don't need those16:57
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J1mThen they aren't testing dependencies.16:57
J1mIf they are there when you run teh tests, they shoudl be there in production.16:58
philiKON_sure, ok16:58
J1mMaybe you can avoid this for things like test runners, if you can run your tests with separate test runners.16:58
benjito me there are a couple different situations: testing dependencies help you test the code in isolation; you should also test the code in situ with integration tests (where the dependencies are provided by your system)16:58
J1mso, IMO, the main use case for extras isn't really useful.16:58
J1mNext, consider the case of trying to limit dependencies.16:59
J1mzope.component is the poster child.16:59
J1mIn order to be able to make it usable at all outside of Zope, I created extras for persistent registries and zcml.16:59
J1mThe problem is that there are one set of tests that test everything.17:00
philiKON_that's a prloblem of the tests, though17:00
J1mSure.  I can with some effort, segment the tests so that I can run tests of:17:00
J1m- zope.component without the extras17:01
J1m- The persistent registry extras17:01
J1m- the zcml extra17:01
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J1mBut that's a bit of work.17:01
J1mI could create 3 different test runners, or I could try to do something with layers.17:01
J1mAnd all the time, I have to be careful not to mess up.17:01
* baijum btw, started listing non-zope apps here:
philiKON_or these things shouldn't have been in zope.component :)17:02
J1mThis requires hard thinking.17:02
philiKON_does it?17:02
* J1m hates thinking hard. It hurts us.17:02
* J1m has a low threshold for hard thinking. :)17:02
philiKON_sure, but where do i need to think hard?17:02
benjithinking is hard, let's go shopping!17:02
J1mWE have to think hard by:17:02
J1m- configuring and running separate test runners, or by17:03
philiKON_zope.persistentcomponent wouldn't have been that hard, would it've been?17:03
J1m- using layers (jim waves hands)17:03
philiKON_ah, i misunderstood you17:03
J1m- Making sure that we don't have extra packages available to the test runner.17:03
J1mSimply creating separate packages is a lot simpler imo.17:03
philiKON_what i meant was that zope.component perhaps is too big17:03
J1mExactly, it is17:04
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philiKON_that's what i meant17:04
philiKON_so we agree17:04
J1mPeople who advocate extras say it saves them the effort of maanging separate packages.17:04
J1mI think maybe those people aren't very careful about testing.17:04
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philiKON_prolly not17:04
J1mSo that's why I think extras are a crock.17:04
philiKON_ok, cool17:05
J1mOh yeah, and they make setuptools more complicated.17:05
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seonewcan a single viewlet in a manager be displayed, or will all of them always be displayed?23:16
philiKONall applicable viewlets for that manager will be displayed23:17
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seonewi was thinking of making a single page which would show either the edit form or add form depending on a parameter23:27
seonewso i was looking at using a viewlet to manage that section, but doesn't look like i can do that23:27
philiKONnot with viewlets, no23:28
seonewany suggestions23:28
seonewi was looking for a solution that made use of the zope architecture23:31
seonewthought they'd be a nice way to do it23:31
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philiKONseonew: don't try to outsmart yourself23:35
philiKONthe CA doesn't stand for over-complex things23:35
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seonewyeah, i'll just have them on separate pages for now, look at it again later23:38
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seonewi could set a flag in one of the form's viewlet classes, and then in the template condition the form on the flag23:39
seonewhow does that sound to you23:41
philiKONtoo complicated to be obvious to me at this point23:41
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