IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2007-06-21

Theunithey do exactly the same things00:00
TheuniANSI is so bad in this regard00:00
Theuniwhat postgres calls "serializable" is also just snapshot isolation and you can provoke the same effect there.00:00
benjiDieter should have said00:00
J1mMany databases provide for multiple levels of isolation, letting you trade off consistency vs performance.00:00
benji"and so do most other databases"00:00
TheuniHe didn't. He is sitting on his "I" means serialized and nothing else.00:00
benjithere apparently aren't many ACID databases then <wink>00:01
J1mI think it would be good for ZODB to provide the option of a higher level of consistence.00:01
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TheuniJ1m: It looks like many stepped away from doing isolation on the highest level as they had *huge* problems because of global locking strategies.00:01
TheuniJ1m: I think so too. :)00:01
J1mBut in any case, we need to address the catalog issues.00:02
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TheuniI'm not sure where exactly they were. He was giving me code snippets and some vague references. It's definitely some Zope 2 index, but the general issue might be lurking somewhere.00:02
J1mThat will likely mean either running with a higher leve lof isolation, or, more likely, writing index code so that it avoids this sort of problem.00:02
TheuniThe interesting part would be how bad the performance penalty of the higher isolation level would be.00:03
J1mThere is a similar issue with conflict resolution and undo.00:03
J1mFor example, we need to provide greater control over conflict resolution.00:03
J1mTheuni, for starters, if you wanted to approach higher isolation, then you'd need to abandon conflict resolution.00:04
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TheuniJ1m: Right. Which would mean to make changes to the btrees.00:04
Theunibah. :(00:04
J1mwell, this change wouldn't be so bad, as it would involve taking code out.00:05
J1mI really want to revisit conflict resolution in a major way.00:05
TheuniWanna put down a reminder in the blueprints to keep that visible?00:05
* J1m suspects benji knows when I'm on irc because here can hear me. 00:06
J1mWell, I need to write a proposal.00:06
J1mIn fact, I need to write several proposals. :)00:06
TheuniYou could put in a stub first to not let it fall off and show other people that there is something about to happen. ;)00:06
* benji listens to the pitter-patter of J1m's typing... it's like raindrops on a tin roof.00:06
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Theunibenji: tin apple notebook?00:07
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benjiTheuni: no, here he uses this ity-bity keyboard that I swear has a volume nob on the side turned to 1100:08
* benji is dissaponited he didn't hear a J1m-chuckle; must try harder.00:08
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TheuniJ1m: The thing about conflict resolution I see is that whenever the conflict happens, there is already other data that was involved that will be inconsistent when we decide for the changes to happen, and it's going to be quite painful to reconstruct this sanely. So probably conflict resolution is more of a low-level tool for developing near to the ZODB itself instead of a real application. But maybe there's some idea lurking in your head that already t00:16
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TheuniOk. I've put in the bug into launchpad. Need to go and check whether my bed is still there and usable. ;)00:19
faassenbenji: you should wire up a J1m-chuckle detector to an irc bot so I know too.00:21
TheuniI think that's built into Jims irc client already. I think my log saw him chuckle every now and then.00:22
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faassenrunyaga: hey00:22
* Theuni waves00:22
runyagagot a question guys00:23
runyagais there a way to query zcml and get back all of the views/interface/spermissions that are registered?00:23
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TheuniDo you want to see what's in the ZCML or what's registered in the live system?00:24
runyagain zcml00:24
faassenso you don't want to ask the component registry but you actually want to know which lines of zcml?00:24
runyagaokno no no00:24
runyagai want to ask the component registry00:24
runyagai want to make an excel spreesheet for hte testing guy who will go throug hand ensure hte permissions on each view00:25
runyagaour security stuff  is kinda complicated00:25
faassenanyway, concerning all registered interfaces, I think they get registered as some utility and I know there's some code that looks them up somewhere in the zope 3 ZMI.00:25
faassenconcerning views and permissions I'm not sure.00:25
TheuniThe online API reference code should be helpful00:25
runyagai was gonna dig into srichters code cause00:25
TheuniIt has all the stuff in there.00:26
faassenright, srichter's code is definitely the place to look.00:26
runyagathats called apihelp?00:26
runyagathats it00:26
runyagahow is europe?  you guys still hatin on bush?00:27
TheuniIs this line secure?00:27
* runyaga grins00:27
TheuniI'd like not to wake up tomorrow and notice that I'm dead. ;)00:27
faassenrunyaga: I have the impression the US is coming to agree with the european feeling more and more. :)00:27
faassenTheuni: you just say something safely ambiguous. :)00:28
J1mTheuni, there needs to be a way to at least turn off conflict resolution.00:28
faassenturn off conflict resolution? I thought Bush already did that. :)00:28
TheuniJ1m: that's probably a simple option that just will avoid calling the resolution code.00:28
faassenTheuni: that one just came in the exact proper wrong context. :)00:28
J1mBush always knows how to resolve conflicts.00:29
J1mTheuni, that's an option that would need to be added to every storage.00:30
TheuniBut I think he's risking the consistency aspect with that strategy. So he might be using the ZODB.00:30
TheuniJ1m: oh. storages do that call? Hmm.00:30
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J1mNo, that would imply that he does dirty reads, which would imply that he reads.  All of his decision are consistent.00:31
TheuniSo actually his transactions are more like Schroedinger-compatible?00:31
* Theuni stops and reaaaaally goes to bed.00:33
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runyagastuff isnt for the faint of hart00:37
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tjsis there a simple way to get the instance home dir ?04:32
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ZopeIncould anyone give me a hint how come all the schema fields are persistent but one attribute I found is not?04:33
ZopeInI have an attribute in my interface, which is a folder of another object. I initiate it as thisAttribute = aFolder(), but this attribute is gone once I run zope again04:37
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romanofs1imoin :)09:54
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zagy_the zc.recipe.egg rpath directive doesn't seem to work11:29
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zagyor I interpret it wrong11:29
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zagyoh it seems that I just did something wrong... as I would expect it actually11:41
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dobeehi all, i have functional tests with different zcml layers, when each layer is testet seperatly everything works fine, but if i run them together there are some adapter registrations missing that are defined via zcml, any clue?13:20
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zagydobee: probably in one test there is a manual adapter registration or unregistration13:36
zagyeven though with different layers this shouldn't make a differnce13:36
dobeezagy: hm, no there is no manual registration13:37
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pcardunesrichter: ayt?14:31
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Crippswell, just in case anyone is interested in how I resolved my problem yesterday about not having an "add menu" from within a site, all I did was add a "browser:containerView" section in the site's browser/configure.zcml15:27
Crippsand now it works like magic :D15:27
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xbeanxCripps: guess nobody cares..  :p17:51
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witschcan anyone help me with ConnectionStateErrors? *duck* :)18:26
witschi'm getting them with high ram usage, triggered by 'setstate()' when the subscribers of the EndRequestEvent should be called18:27
witschbecause at that point the zodb connection was already closed18:27
witschit kinda looks like a bug in zope to me, i don't seem to get them (so far), when i fire EndRequestEvent before the "self._held=None" in ZPublisher/
witschJ1m, faassen, Theuni: any idea about that?  :)18:30
J1mI'm looking for the relevent module.18:30
witschJ1m: ok, thanks...  basically i just switched those two lines (in 2.10.3 btw) and the errors i could reproduce pretty reliably before now don't happen anymore...  well, so far :)18:31
J1mwhat 2 lines.18:32
J1mYou could make this a lot less hard for me.18:32
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witschJ1m: sorry :)18:32
J1mIt looks to me like request.close is called after calling endRequest.18:32
witschJ1m: in ZPublisher/, lines 205 and 20618:32
J1mthis is zope3-dev. It isn't zope-dev.18:33
witschin pdb it looked like self._held = None caused the zodb to close the connection18:33
J1mI suggest asking this question on #zope-dev.18:33
J1mThere is no ZPublisher in Zope 3.18:33
witschJ1m: ok, it's just i already ask andreas, and he suggested asking you18:34
witschJ1m: i know :)18:34
J1mIn Zope 3, the request is closed after calling endRequest on the publication.18:34
J1mI have no idea wtf Zope 2 does these days.18:34
witschJ1m: hmm, okay, but who would have one? :)18:35
J1mIt sounds like you are right about there being a Zope 2 bug.18:35
J1mAndreas should know who. :)18:35
benjiwitsch: perhaps someone in #zope or on the Zope 2 mailing list18:35
witschJ1m: :)18:35
J1mMaybe one of the Five guys.18:36
witschbenji: ok, i'll try that, thanks :)18:36
J1mLike faassen or philiKON_18:36
J1mLike faassen or philiKON_18:36
J1mLike faassen or philiKON_18:36
* J1m wonders if faassen or philiKON_'s screens flash in a pleasing manner like his does. ;)18:37
witschJ1m: ok, will try to catch them...18:37
witschJ1m: :)18:37
witschJ1m: it might beep gently like at the sprint :)18:37
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CrippsJ1m loves seeing his name flash ... but not as much as benji enjoys seeing J1m's name flash ;)18:38
witschJ1m: actually, i think it was faassen who tried to make everyone's computer beep at the sprint, not you...  huh, my brain :)18:41
* benji laments the fact that he moved his desk away from Jim's and can nolonger bask in the blinking glory.18:43
Crippsbenji: that's just too bad :(18:43
faassenJ1m: no, mine doesn't flash. my chat tab title just becomes blue.18:46
Crippsmine used to do that ...18:47
witschfaassen: :)  hi there18:47
CrippsI'm using the xchat systray and now I get a blue exclamation point that starts blinking when someone says my name ...18:47
faassenbut I have n idea about ConnectionStateErrors.18:47
Crippsbut the beep is pointless for me since I'm always listening to music ... I'll probably think it's part of the song :P18:48
witschfaassen: hmm, who's written that code anyway? :)18:49
faassenthe publisher?18:49
witschfaassen: yep :)18:49
faassenwell, Jim presumably wrote lots of it long ago. but the latest hackery to hack five stuff into it..18:49
faassenI think it was Lennart Regebro, but I'm not sure.18:50
* J1m points finger at benji18:50
witschfaassen: aha, philiKON_ put in the "notify(EndRequestEvent(None, self))" part18:50
witschthat's what svn blame says at least :)18:50
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* benji wonders why J1m's standing there pointing at him.18:56
faassenbenji: I think he wants you to go hack the z2 publisher.18:58
faassenbenji: fun, fun. :)18:58
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benjiespecially fun for z2 users, as I have no idea how that code works18:59
faassenbenji: neither do any z2 users. :)18:59
witschfaassen: exactly! :)18:59
faassenbenji: that's why it's so much fun. :)18:59
benjisounds like the kind of challenge I like19:00
witschfaassen: problem's just that this is happening in a project we've been working on for more than a year now19:00
faassenbenji: fun as in an euphemism for a very scary experience. :)19:00
witschfaassen: so we kinda need to fix it...  :)19:00
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witschok, thanks guys... gotta go baby-sit for a while now :)19:07
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junkafarianhi *20:13
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junkafarianim getting an SSLNotSupported exception when im trying to run the zope instance with the default ssl server config20:14
junkafarianis there any documentation online?20:14
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benjijunkafarian: without looking into it my first suggestion is to read the prose around the breaking test20:16
junkafarianwill do benji, thanks20:17
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junkafarianbenji: the IReactorSSL interface isnt being provided by the reactor module as far as i can see20:40
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benjijunkafarian: can you reproduce this error in a fresh, clean checkout?20:41
junkafariansorry im quite new to zope and the way its servers work20:41
* J1m thinks junkafarian should be asking mkerrin or srichter 20:41
* benji points at J1m.20:41
* J1m points at faassen 20:41
junkafarianpassing the torch eh :P20:41
* srichter points to junkafarian20:42
junkafarianill try reproducing the error on a clean instance20:42
J1mmkerrin and srichter worked on twisted integration20:42
junkafariansrichter: hi20:42
* benji snaps a picture of everyone standing around pointing at each other.20:42
junkafarianreservoir dogs style20:42
* srichter notes that he has not worked on the Twisted stuff in ages and really knows nothing about it anymore20:42
* J1m thinks junkafarian should use paste Deploy, in which case, he should ask philiKON_ 20:42
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* benji is intruigued by this new trend of telepathic communication.20:43
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CSWookieI heard that benji and J1m were being funny in here.20:44
* J1m was actually trying to be helpful20:44
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benjiit's hard to tell the difference20:45
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junkafarianre: the clean instance, that dont work either :(20:47
junkafarianobviously something wrong with my zope setup20:47
benjijunkafarian: I said fresh, clean checkout, not instance20:48
benjior perhaps you're not using a checkout20:48
* junkafarian scrolls back up20:48
junkafarianso ya did20:48
junkafarianits not a checkout20:48
junkafarianits an installed version of 3.3.120:48
J1mI'll note that there are no tests for SSL support AFAIK. IOW, it does not exist.20:48
benjiof course, the tests are failing on the trunk, so that wouldn't help either; grr, grr!20:49
junkafarianis a checkout more favourable?20:49
philiKON_wsgi is your friend20:49
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* J1m waves his hand and softly says to junkafarian "there is no SSL in Zope 3"20:49
* junkafarian feels blessed20:50
CSWookieBlessing are a lot like mind tricks.20:50
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* benji can't decide if he should hand J1m the light saber or holy water20:50
philiKON_the holy saber20:51
philiKON_nobody expects the spanish inquisition!20:51
CSWookieNah, philiKON_, light water.20:51
CSWookieLight tonic water.20:51
* J1m loves light tonic water20:52
benjiok, ok!  everyone back to work!20:52
J1mphiliKON_, does the twisted wsgi support exposed to Paste Deploy support SSL?20:53
faassenyou were pointing randomly at me, huh?20:54
J1mWe really should remove the untested SSL decoy code from Zope 3 -- so people aren't tempted to try to use it.20:54
philiKON_J1m: no, afaik not20:54
* faassen points randomly at people.20:55
philiKON_J1m: in fact, the twisted stuff for pastedeploy is rather fishy20:55
faassensorry, I'm still getting over the j1m points at faassen.20:55
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philiKON_it's 10 or so lines and ian says it's really just an experiment20:55
J1mjunkafarian, perhaps you could use mod_python and use Apache's SSL support.20:55
benjiwhy mod_python?  you mean mod_proxy?20:56
junkafariani was thinking that i would just proxy_pass the ssl connection to a the standard zope server20:56
philiKON_this is what we usually do20:56
J1mI mean one of the wsgi/apache plugins.20:56
philiKON_running zope inside apache is tricky20:56
faassenjunkafarian: okay, only listen to j1m if you want to experiment with stuff. proxy_pass is the way that's going to work, just like with zope 2.20:56
philiKON_even better, it's described in my book :)20:57
* J1m is glad he pointed at faassen, obviously selectively.20:57
faassennow it *would* be good if zope worked just with mod_python and all that fun.20:57
junkafarianmmmm tasty development code20:57
faassenand philiKON_ is indeed the guy to point at for that stuff.20:57
* philiKON_ certainly wants to explore it some more :)20:57
philiKON_anyway, i'm off20:58
philiKON_good luck20:58
junkafarianphiliKON_: i think i read your book20:58
faassenI think we all agree tha tif we could make zope just deploy more out-of-the-boxy in all kinds of environments using wsgi, that'd be good.20:58
faassenphiliKON_: see you.20:58
junkafarianthanks for the luck ;)20:58
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faassenespecially under an apache + mod_python. Django can do stuff like that, I believe.20:58
faassenthe closer we get to that, the more we're like mod_php and look where that got PHP. :)20:59
* benji wonders if junkafarian has a medical condition that causes him to forget which books he's read. <wink>20:59
faassenbenji: agbybliphasia20:59
junkafariantheres just so many that i cant remember any more :P20:59
philiKON_it's not exactly a book you read once and then you know it all :)20:59
faassenanyway that'd be cool, if I forgot the books I could read.20:59
faassenI could just read a single novel over and over.20:59
philiKON_junkafarian: get it from your shelf and flip open the last chapter...21:00
junkafarianyeah i tried to digest it as much as i could21:00
philiKON_faassen: that'd be pretty cheap :)21:00
junkafarianit belongs to a collegue21:00
faassenand what I'd do is a strategy of hill-climbing, so that I require myself to score the experience, and if my score is higher than the last score, I read that book until I's not going to work.21:00
faassenanyway my goal would be to find the best book ever and then read that ove rand over.21:00
junkafarianoooo its here21:00
* junkafarian flips it open to the last chapter21:01
faassenI'm outta here.21:01
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junkafariangot it sorted thanks for the help everyone ;)21:07
junkafariansure ill be back pretty soon :P21:07
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benjihmm, that should be our helpdesk technique from now on: point fingers and make jokes until the person figures it out for themselves21:19
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Crippsbenji: hm. works here ;)21:27
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