| timte | mgedmin: it's possible to just run the virtualenv.py that is in the tarball without installing anything, if you didn't do that already... | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| mgedmin | yes, I found that | 00:03 |
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| ignas | who broke what in zope.catalog? seems like addIntIdSubscriber is not triggering indexing anymore ... | 00:35 |
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| philiKON | ignas: if you really think something broke, svn blame is your friend | 00:43 |
| ignas | philiKON: eggs don't support that scenario | 00:44 |
| ignas | seems like berndroessl | 00:44 |
| philiKON | huh?!? | 00:44 |
| ignas | was changing something around | 00:44 |
| philiKON | what's that go to do with eggs | 00:44 |
| ignas | philiKON: i don't have a checkout of that module | 00:44 |
| ignas | philiKON: so i don't have a file i could run svn blame on | 00:44 |
| philiKON | ummm... get a checkout? | 00:44 |
| philiKON | also, svn blame takes an svn url | 00:45 |
| philiKON | svn blame svn://svn.zope.org/repos/main/zope.app.catalog/trunk/src/zope/app/catalog/... | 00:45 |
| ignas | i don't have the url ;) | 00:45 |
| ignas | but thanks | 00:45 |
| philiKON | sheesh | 00:45 |
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| philiKON | put it in an environment variable in .profile | 00:46 |
| philiKON | mine's called $z | 00:46 |
| ignas | :) | 00:46 |
| philiKON | so i can do svn co $z/zope.app.catalog/trunk zope.app.catalog | 00:46 |
| ignas | good itea | 00:47 |
| ignas | idea | 00:47 |
| ignas | thanks | 00:47 |
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| ignas | philiKON: still there? | 01:10 |
| philiKON | yep | 01:10 |
| ignas | the thing that changed in catalog is that component.getAllUtilitiesRegisteredFor(ICatalog, context=ob) is used | 01:10 |
| ignas | instead of component.getAllUtilitiesRegisteredFor(ICatalog) | 01:11 |
| ignas | should i change registrations of my catalogs in some way? | 01:11 |
| philiKON | i wonder why it didn't show up in the commit messages | 01:11 |
| philiKON | somebody should tell him to subscribe to checkins@zope.org | 01:11 |
| philiKON | hmm, no | 01:11 |
| philiKON | no idea | 01:11 |
| philiKON | what does the commit log say? | 01:11 |
| philiKON | is there a test? | 01:11 |
| philiKON | i would investigate this | 01:11 |
| philiKON | and if it causes further probelms, write an email | 01:12 |
| philiKON | to him and cc the list | 01:12 |
| ignas | tests were not changed | 01:12 |
| philiKON | that's the procedure | 01:12 |
| philiKON | well, if tests weren't changed, then it means it's untested | 01:12 |
| philiKON | and therefore broken by definition | 01:12 |
| philiKON | i think i know who he is, though | 01:12 |
| ignas | its suposedly a bugfix, but no tests were added (it seems) | 01:13 |
| philiKON | just write an email | 01:13 |
| philiKON | there isn't anything i can do for you here... | 01:14 |
| ignas | oh | 01:14 |
| ignas | sorry | 01:14 |
| ignas | there is a test | 01:14 |
| ignas | i'll have to look into it | 01:14 |
| philiKON | ok then | 01:14 |
| philiKON | good luck | 01:14 |
| philiKON | :) | 01:14 |
| ignas | it's 1 am here so i'll have to do it tomorrow | 01:14 |
| ignas | gee | 01:20 |
| ignas | so every object has a siteManager associated with it in some way? | 01:21 |
| ignas | or might have that is | 01:21 |
| ignas | if so - how do i "register" my stub object with a specific site manager? | 01:21 |
| ignas | so that getSiteManager(my_object) would return the right site manager | 01:21 |
| ignas | ahh, it's __parent__ based | 01:22 |
| ignas | so it's not a bug in zope.catalog, just a change that invalidated my old stubs | 01:23 |
| ignas | a handy tip - if your objects seem to be evading indexing, make sure their __parent__ is set up properly | 01:26 |
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| J1m | I'm suspicious of this change myself. | 01:28 |
| J1m | I just don't have time to think about it. :( | 01:28 |
| J1m | This is a backward incompatible change I suspect. | 01:29 |
| ignas | most objects have their parents set up | 01:30 |
| ignas | and if they haven't then they were susceptible to bugs when site is ambiguous | 01:30 |
| J1m | yeeeees, but I'm not sure that it is a requirement to be a location to be catalogable. | 01:30 |
| ignas | is there another way to have a site? | 01:31 |
| J1m | There's no obvious reason why this should be a requirement. | 01:31 |
| J1m | sure. | 01:31 |
| ignas | so - if there is no parent should a global site, or the active local site be used? | 01:31 |
| J1m | Sites are thread-local, | 01:32 |
| J1m | The thread-loxcal site should be used. | 01:32 |
| J1m | local | 01:32 |
| J1m | That was the old behavior. | 01:32 |
| ignas | and if there is parent - should the local be used or the one that object belongs to? | 01:32 |
| J1m | imo, the thread-local one should be used. | 01:32 |
| ignas | hmm, i see | 01:33 |
| ignas | i mean - i don't have this problem | 01:33 |
| ignas | i have only 1 site | 01:33 |
| ignas | and my views are in proper places | 01:33 |
| projekt01 | J1m, context=ob, should explicit avoid to use local sites | 01:33 |
| J1m | why? | 01:33 |
| ignas | otoh - how would you work around indexing objects that belong to 1 site, while are modified with other site being active | 01:34 |
| J1m | are you saying that that is better? | 01:34 |
| projekt01 | I have nothing to do with the catalog changes, but context=ob explicit a way you can get another catalog if the ob is from another site. | 01:34 |
| ignas | which might happen with nested sites | 01:34 |
| ignas | projekt01: yes, the point is should that be done in the default DocIndex subscriber | 01:35 |
| ignas | or not | 01:35 |
| ignas | someone decided that it would be nice thing to do | 01:35 |
| projekt01 | I'm not sure, the catalog indexing has also to do how you setu IIntIds utility. | 01:35 |
| J1m | was there a proposal to do this? | 01:36 |
| projekt01 | Catalog indexing with more then one IntId util can get a real pain, becaue the catalog and the IntId util can't find each other | 01:36 |
| ignas | projekt01: svn diff -r 79789:79790 svn://svn.zope.org/repos/main/zope.app.catalog/trunk/ the changeset in question | 01:37 |
| projekt01 | I don't think this should be like it is. The use case depends on a havy optimized site setup. | 01:39 |
| ignas | you mean the bugfix should not have been applied? | 01:41 |
| projekt01 | Probably not, but why does this affect your catalog? | 01:43 |
| ignas | unit tests | 01:43 |
| ignas | my objects had no __parent__ set up | 01:43 |
| ignas | so getSiteManager | 01:43 |
| ignas | on them was not returning the local site that i have set with setSite | 01:43 |
| ignas | so my stub objects were not being indexed | 01:44 |
| projekt01 | ouch, I see, that changes hurts then | 01:44 |
| projekt01 | probably we should at least use: if ILocation.providedBy(ob): context=ob else: context=None | 01:45 |
| ignas | projekt01: i think it is possible to set a site manager for a non location object | 01:45 |
| projekt01 | hooks.getSite knows about the last traversed site | 01:46 |
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| ignas | i mean - if you can set a specific site manager for objects that is not retrieved using __parent__ then the bugfix will only work for sites that are __parent__ based | 01:47 |
| ignas | and will do something unexpected if your object is not a location | 01:47 |
| ignas | not sure if i am making myself clear though :/ | 01:47 |
| projekt01 | providing no __parent__ is not a good idea. | 01:48 |
| ignas | well - not all objects implement ILocation | 01:48 |
| projekt01 | security does also only correct work with ILocation | 01:48 |
| projekt01 | such object only depend on global security settings | 01:49 |
| ignas | or custom security policies | 01:49 |
| ignas | from what i understand you can have an adapter for IComponentLookup | 01:49 |
| ignas | so anything can have a site attached to them | 01:50 |
| ignas | i might be wrong though | 01:50 |
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| projekt01 | I didn't used IComponentLookup, I just get allways errors named like this ;-) | 01:53 |
| projekt01 | but you could be right | 01:53 |
| ignas | ok, i really have to go to sleep | 01:55 |
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| ignas | bye | 01:55 |
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| * mgedmin announces http://mg.pov.lt/gtkeggdeps/ | 02:08 | |
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| pcardune | mgedmin: cool | 02:28 |
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| projekt01 | Theuni, ayt? | 05:25 |
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| edgordon | anyone here familiar w/ z3c.authentication that would wanna help me out w/ the special groups? pm me if you don't mind helping for a few minutes | 06:19 |
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| *** baijum changes topic to "Zope 3.4.0b1 is out: http://www.zope.org/Products/Zope3/3.4.0b1 | Paste: http://paste.lisp.org/new/zope3-dev | Zope 3.4 bugs: http://tinyurl.com/yvyeo5 | bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope3/ | FAQ: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/FAQ | wiki: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3 | irc logs: http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs/" | 10:03 | |
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| jpfarias | good morning | 15:07 |
| jpfarias | I have this problem | 15:07 |
| jpfarias | I have removed an utility from a local site manager | 15:08 |
| jpfarias | and forgot to unregister it first | 15:08 |
| jpfarias | it was an ICatalog | 15:08 |
| jpfarias | so | 15:08 |
| jpfarias | now | 15:08 |
| jpfarias | sm.getAllUtilitiesRegisteredFor(ICatalog) | 15:08 |
| jpfarias | returns that catalog I removed | 15:08 |
| jpfarias | but I really don't want it there | 15:08 |
| jpfarias | I tried to unregister it | 15:09 |
| jpfarias | but seems to not work | 15:09 |
| jpfarias | it keeps registered | 15:09 |
| jpfarias | lol | 15:09 |
| mgedmin | strange, I thought you couldn't remove a utility while it was registered | 15:09 |
| jpfarias | how can I force the unregistration? | 15:09 |
| mgedmin | z3 had the IDependencies framework for ensuring that | 15:09 |
| mgedmin | how are you unregistering it and how doesn't it work (is there an exception, or it just ignores your request?) | 15:10 |
| jpfarias | sm.unregisterUtility(utility, ICatalog, name) | 15:10 |
| jpfarias | it returns False | 15:10 |
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| jpfarias | if I do catalogs = sm.getAllUtilitiesRegisteredFor(ICatalog) | 15:11 |
| jpfarias | catalogs[0].__name__ is None | 15:12 |
| jpfarias | return True | 15:12 |
| jpfarias | same for __parent__ | 15:12 |
| jpfarias | that is just weird | 15:12 |
| mgedmin | no | 15:13 |
| mgedmin | when you remove an object, it's name and parent become None | 15:13 |
| jpfarias | yeah | 15:13 |
| mgedmin | but it is not actually deleted from the ZODB if any other objects have references to it | 15:13 |
| jpfarias | that the problem | 15:13 |
| jpfarias | how do I get rid of them now? | 15:13 |
| * mgedmin reads the source of unregisterUtility | 15:14 | |
| jpfarias | where is that source? | 15:15 |
| mgedmin | are you sure you're unregistering it from the right site manager? | 15:15 |
| jpfarias | tried to find it | 15:15 |
| * mgedmin knows how to use ctags | 15:15 | |
| jpfarias | yep | 15:15 |
| jpfarias | lol | 15:15 |
| mgedmin | zope/component/registry.py | 15:15 |
| mgedmin | what if you tried sm.unregisterUtility(provided=ICatalog, name=...) without explicitly passing in component? | 15:16 |
| jpfarias | can I do that? | 15:17 |
| jpfarias | lol | 15:17 |
| jpfarias | lemme try | 15:17 |
| mgedmin | according to the source code, you can | 15:17 |
| jpfarias | no luck :-( | 15:18 |
| jpfarias | where does getAllUtilitiesRegisteredFor look for the utilities? | 15:23 |
| jpfarias | maybe that is the place I need to remove it from | 15:23 |
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| Theuni | srichter: hey, any idea about the failing tests on formdemo yet? we have a hard time figuring out what's going on as we're trying to get started with z3c.form | 15:26 |
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| mgedmin | Theuni: I *think* that's about z3c.formdemo depending on features that are only in the latest as-of-yet-unreleased version of z3c.form | 15:31 |
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| Theuni | hmm | 15:32 |
| * Theuni tries with trunk | 15:33 | |
| Theuni | ok | 15:34 |
| Theuni | that makes the demo instance come up | 15:34 |
| Theuni | the tests still fail in various ways | 15:34 |
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| projekt01 | Theuni, can you add me to the packages on PyPi? I need to release the missing packages. | 15:42 |
| Theuni | yes, in a few minutes. | 15:43 |
| projekt01 | btw, can we createa a list with pypi usernames and copy all names at once to the packages | 15:43 |
| projekt01 | Theuni, thanks, don't hurry | 15:43 |
| srichter | Theuni: I am looking at it now | 15:44 |
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| Theuni | srichter: ok thanks. | 15:44 |
| Theuni | I found one error in widgets/README.txt that "can never have worked" (tm) ;) | 15:45 |
| srichter | he he :-) | 15:45 |
| Theuni | E.g. on the float field you add '1234.1234' instead of replacing the value, that borks. a few other things pop up too | 15:45 |
| WebMaven | heh | 15:45 |
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| srichter | Theuni: that could very well be; I have worked on z3c.form a lot and might have not looked at z3c.formdemo to see whether it sitll passes | 15:46 |
| Theuni | Too bad. | 15:47 |
| srichter | well that happens | 15:47 |
| Theuni | yup | 15:47 |
| srichter | it will get much worse | 15:47 |
| srichter | since it is a direct consequences of eggs | 15:47 |
| Theuni | We tried using it to get started with a fresh project and that didn't work out too well. | 15:47 |
| Theuni | Trying to get a minimal project running is kind of lots of work. | 15:48 |
| srichter | Theuni: eggs you mean? | 15:48 |
| Theuni | z3c.form i mean :) | 15:48 |
| srichter | Theuni: yes! I think we need a Zope3 meta egg that has all the deps and creates a ZCML file for you | 15:48 |
| Theuni | yikes =) | 15:49 |
| philiKON | srichter: looked at zopeproject? | 15:49 |
| srichter | Theuni: Roger and I are working on it; Roger is developing a minimal skin that will have all the necessary support | 15:49 |
| WebMaven | philiKON: does zopeproject handle the library or namespace use-cases yet? | 15:49 |
| Theuni | Hmm. Anything visible yet that we could build on? | 15:49 |
| philiKON | WebMaven: no... not yet | 15:50 |
| Theuni | argh | 15:50 |
| philiKON | srichter: btw, i don't buy the "this is a direct consequence of eggs" argument. if you break another package, you introduced a backward-incompatible change | 15:50 |
| Theuni | projekt01: i just noticed that you wanted access to all zope. and zope.app packages. | 15:50 |
| Theuni | in theory i would just give that to you | 15:50 |
| Theuni | in practice i have to do quite some clicking and typing for each individual project | 15:51 |
| Theuni | :( | 15:51 |
| philiKON | Theuni: zope.testbrowser is your friend :) | 15:51 |
| Theuni | philiKON: argh | 15:51 |
| Theuni | you have anything ready for that? | 15:51 |
| philiKON | sadly no | 15:51 |
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| projekt01 | Thenui, should we create a list with all pypi user names from people here at the sprint, so we can add more users at once? | 15:55 |
| Theuni | I'm not sure about that. | 15:55 |
| WebMaven | philiKON: Hmm. it might be useful if zopeproject added a basic front-page testbrowser test or other doctest... | 15:55 |
| WebMaven | I mean, to the README | 15:56 |
| projekt01 | Theuni, you don't think every developer should have pypi permission? | 15:56 |
| philiKON | WebMaven: i'm wary about adding too much boilerplate | 15:56 |
| srichter | philiKON: yes, but I would prefer not using paster (yet at least) | 15:56 |
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| srichter | Theuni: why are you not sure? | 15:57 |
| philiKON | srichter: it has a zopectl-like script... | 15:57 |
| WebMaven | Ah, but a boilerplate test will fail as soon as any development starts... | 15:57 |
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| srichter | Theuni: the egg process will not work if not all committers can create eggs and upload them | 15:57 |
| philiKON | srichter, projekt01: releasing stuff takes a certain process, though. i would very much like to make sure that everybody who has the permissions to upload releases is aware of this process | 15:58 |
| projekt01 | philiKON, our development process is a f**ing mess right now. | 15:58 |
| philiKON | one bad release can break stuff for everybody | 15:58 |
| philiKON | projekt01: i tried documenting it | 15:58 |
| philiKON | http://svn.zope.org/*checkout*/Sandbox/philikon/foundation/maintaining-software.txt | 15:58 |
| srichter | it's a little biit late for enforcing the process agreement | 15:59 |
| srichter | the egg mess started already | 15:59 |
| philiKON | what? | 15:59 |
| philiKON | it's never too late | 15:59 |
| projekt01 | philiKON, Theuni, please fix this, we are here at the sprint and don't like to discuss this, we have to do our work, that we discussed with J1m the last couple days. | 15:59 |
| philiKON | fix what? | 16:00 |
| srichter | this is really frustrating; basically we have an elite that can only upload Zope packagees to pypi; if we trust people with access to svn.zoep.org, we have to trust them to be able to do releases | 16:00 |
| philiKON | what work is it that you're doing? for all i know, i've seen no proposal | 16:00 |
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| srichter | give Roger (and me as well) access to the zope packages on pypi | 16:01 |
| projekt01 | philiKON, fix the development process and give me access to Pypi, or do you like to create eggs for me? | 16:01 |
| Theuni | Ok, I thought about that a bit. I think I'd be happy to add committers to pypi. Hwowever. I don't have time to write a script right now and I don't have time to do it manually. If someone gives me a script and a list of people that are committers that should be added, then I'll run it with my account. | 16:01 |
| philiKON | projekt01: calm down | 16:01 |
| philiKON | we're not going to get anywhere by getting cynical or emotional over this | 16:01 |
| Theuni | (I won't fix pypi ;) ) | 16:01 |
| wiggy | BUT THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END IF WE DO NOT FIX THIS! | 16:02 |
| wiggy | oh wait, perhaps it's not | 16:03 |
| mgedmin | meh | 16:03 |
| mgedmin | imminent death of zope 3 predicted | 16:03 |
| spython | i have a clean windows install wanting to install Zope-3, whats _the_ way of doing that nowadays? Seeing that the way of self-contained installer on win is outdated? | 16:03 |
| philiKON | spython: i suggest zopeproject | 16:04 |
| philiKON | spython: http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/zopeproject | 16:04 |
| philiKON | spython: make sure you read the section for windows users | 16:04 |
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| srichter | mgedmin: unfortunately, not too far from the truth | 16:05 |
| spython | so i first install python, and then "easy_instal", and then i just run this script to install further things i need? | 16:05 |
| philiKON | spython: right | 16:06 |
| spython | ok | 16:06 |
| spython | will i be able to use zope3 the "old" way of isntances if i install zopeproject? | 16:06 |
| srichter | philiKON: I am already very emotional about this; first everything gets eggified without a good plan; we end up in a mess; we try to fix some aspects; get blocked; get told to not get pissed off | 16:06 |
| philiKON | spython: no | 16:07 |
| spython | oh ok | 16:07 |
| srichter | I promised Jim in January I give the approach a try and I did; I at least want to be able to fix the things that mostly disturb me now | 16:07 |
| philiKON | srichter: well, all i'm going to say is that if you had planned (by advice of J1m or whatever) to make egg releases for a while, then i wonder why you need those access rights in a hurry now. you know pypi as well as the rest of us do | 16:08 |
| spython | because i'm setting up a testing on my machine here, will then comit the code to another machine which runs it live.. that machine does not use zopeproject's way of developing.. | 16:08 |
| philiKON | spython: the sandboxes zopeproject creates are pretty self-contained | 16:08 |
| philiKON | srichter: yes, pypi sucks in that respect. | 16:08 |
| spython | ok | 16:09 |
| philiKON | srichter: but what do you want Theuni (or me or J1m) to do right now? | 16:09 |
| philiKON | drop everything we're doing? | 16:09 |
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| spython | I have to think about this some more then, is Zope 3.3.1 available as eggs for me to easy_install or is it only 3.4 and future versions | 16:09 |
| WebMaven | philiKON: how much time are we talking about to grant access en-mass to projects on pypi? | 16:09 |
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| philiKON | srichter: you're advocating for a plan. i tried to write one down, but apparently that isn't enough either... | 16:10 |
| philiKON | WebMaven: i don't know. there are roughly 100 eggs | 16:10 |
| philiKON | WebMaven: i actually have only access to a dozen or so | 16:10 |
| philiKON | (mostly because i stepped up and released final versions for them) | 16:11 |
| WebMaven | 100? | 16:11 |
| philiKON | give or take | 16:11 |
| WebMaven | I found 338 zope3-related projects in pypi yesterday. | 16:11 |
| philiKON | i assume projekt01 was talking about the list on http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/StabilizeEggPackages | 16:12 |
| elro | Hi, I'm trying to backport the Decimal field to 3.3 (in 2.10.4), but I'm getting a ConfigurationError: ('Invalid directive', u'factory') when I try to make the registrations (which I've taken from zope/app/schema/configure.zcml). Any idea what I could be doing wrong? | 16:12 |
| WebMaven | are you just talking about ones in the 'core'? | 16:12 |
| projekt01 | philiKON, yes and a concept for all new once. | 16:12 |
| philiKON | elro: use <utility... provides="...IFactory" /> | 16:12 |
| philiKON | projekt01: i don't understand that last bit | 16:13 |
| * elro wanders if zope.app.schema configure.zcml is ever called | 16:13 | |
| projekt01 | we need a concept if someone adds a new egg. I guess we need to give access to others for that new egg too. | 16:13 |
| projekt01 | you never know which egg you need to fix if you do something. | 16:14 |
| WebMaven | philiKON: Hmm. perhaps those tables need another column for the pypi project owner... | 16:14 |
| projekt01 | the zope.app.error -> zope.error separation needs fixes in zope.app.publication, zope.app.appsetup, and more... | 16:15 |
| philiKON | projekt01: about that... | 16:15 |
| philiKON | projekt01: why does it need fixes? | 16:15 |
| elro | hmm. now I get a ConfigurationError: ('Invalid directive', u'utility'). This is inside a <class> tag | 16:15 |
| philiKON | projekt01: we said we won't do backward incomaptibilities anymore | 16:15 |
| srichter | Theuni: I fix formdemo first; then I write the pypi script | 16:16 |
| projekt01 | Rip out deprecation warnings | 16:16 |
| philiKON | uh huh. why are there even deprecationwarnings? | 16:16 |
| Theuni | srichter: alright | 16:17 |
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| srichter | ... and once more eggification kills my day of doing real things | 16:17 |
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| ignas | ouch | 16:18 |
| ignas | i so feel your pain | 16:18 |
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| projekt01 | I'm really get pissed, I'm doing work here at and before the sprint the last 4 days. This work without a egg process could be done in 6 hours. | 16:20 |
| projekt01 | I see the benefit of eggs, but the development process is a night mare. | 16:20 |
| philiKON | it's not like we hadn't had eggs before your sprint. | 16:21 |
| ignas | hmm, in schooltool we have buildbot that builds the egg and uploads it into our repository if all tests pass | 16:21 |
| ignas | seems like something like that might be quite useful when working on multiple eggs | 16:21 |
| ignas | even if eggs get uploaded to some developer egg repository | 16:21 |
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| projekt01 | philiKON; I can't belive that you didn't see the mess we have right now. Or do you really think it's Ok how it is? | 16:23 |
| philiKON | projekt01: of course i'm aware of the mess | 16:23 |
| philiKON | i'm trying to improve it | 16:23 |
| philiKON | i already brought up some things on the mailinglist | 16:23 |
| projekt01 | I trusted you and others and was thinking if they propose a new egg based process it should be ok, but it's clearly not. | 16:23 |
| philiKON | i'm just saying that you folks must've seen the mess too | 16:23 |
| projekt01 | But YOU forces us very havy to go that way! I don't forgive you that quick ;-) | 16:24 |
| philiKON | i didn't do anything | 16:24 |
| * mgedmin decides it is time to read http://svn.zope.org/*checkout*/Sandbox/philikon/foundation/maintaining-software.txt and see what the fuss is all about | 16:25 | |
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| baijum | philiKON, Theuni, projekt01, srichter and all : I can spend sometime to give access to srichter and projekt01 manually for whatever packages I owned, for rest of the packages you can ask their owners, is it ok now? | 16:26 |
| baijum | srichter,projekt01: what's your PyPI id ? | 16:27 |
| * baijum just reading log | 16:28 | |
| srichter | baijum: thanks a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | 16:28 |
| srichter | baijum: srichter -> srichter | 16:28 |
| srichter | baijum: projekt01 -> projekt01 | 16:29 |
| faassen | anyway, on the eggs, one of the main problems with eggs I've been having is that I keep getting different versions for the same buildout, and so do other people. | 16:30 |
| faassen | so I'd like a way to freeze a list of dependencies in a reusable way. there's already such a way using the setup.py dependencies thing | 16:30 |
| faassen | but that locks people into using whatever the person who did the release, even down to bugfix versions. | 16:31 |
| * mgedmin keeps thinking "you're reinventing Debian" | 16:31 | |
| faassen | so I'd like a way to maintain this separately. | 16:31 |
| faassen | mgedmin: there's a crucial difference. we're looking at a development platform. | 16:31 |
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| wiggy | there is very little difference | 16:31 |
| srichter | baijum: I will still develop a small script (using testbrowser) that will add or at least try to add a user to all packages in the zc.*, zope.*, and z3c.* namespaces | 16:31 |
| wiggy | the package management problems are the exact same | 16:31 |
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| faassen | we have different emphasises. | 16:32 |
| faassen | for isntance, I could install two development projects which use entirely different versions of eggs. | 16:32 |
| baijum | srichter: ok | 16:32 |
| faassen | with a linux distrubtion, I'd need to set up two virtual machines or something. | 16:32 |
| mgedmin | faassen: or chroots -- which in the python world translate to virtualenv/workingenv/virtual-python/zc.buildout directories | 16:33 |
| wiggy | faassen: the package management problems are the same | 16:33 |
| regebro | faassen: Although I do find it constantly annoying that I can't install eggs with apt-get and I can't install Ubuntu packages with buildout. | 16:33 |
| regebro | :) | 16:33 |
| wiggy | faassen: only the place where you install them is different | 16:33 |
| mgedmin | the scale is smaller, but the problems are the same | 16:33 |
| faassen | wiggy: the package management problems are the same, but the use cases have different gradations of importance. | 16:33 |
| faassen | wiggy: which might lead to different solutions. | 16:33 |
| * mgedmin is not getting faassen's point | 16:33 | |
| wiggy | so far I still see everyone slowly reinventing the same wheel | 16:33 |
| faassen | so how do you propose we solve this with debian's package management system? | 16:34 |
| wiggy | I mentioned a while ago that someone should factor out the dependency graph logic from dpkg, apt or rpm and reuse that | 16:34 |
| regebro | Not only may you have many instances of the same egg, but only one of a package, there is no apt-get on Windows. :-) | 16:34 |
| regebro | wiggy: That seams like a good idea, yeah. | 16:35 |
| faassen | this isn't just a dependency management problem. this is a developer project directory management problem. | 16:35 |
| * wiggy has no time to argue this right now | 16:35 | |
| regebro | But I have to say that I don't think the dependency logic is the difficult bit of this. It seems quite staightforward... | 16:36 |
| faassen | wiggy: I'm not really disagreeing all that much. I'm just saying that our requirements may be exactly the same but our *primary* requirements may diverge. factoring out the stuff from existing packge management systems seems like a, um, significant project, as well. :) | 16:36 |
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| faassen | regebro: one of the main problems I have with it is that I can't reproduce a project reliably. | 16:37 |
| faassen | regebro: we do a release of grok, and one week later, someone does a release of some random egg and poof, grok breaks. | 16:37 |
| philiKON | with pinned versions in buildout.cfg you can | 16:37 |
| ignas | faassen: freeze your dependencies | 16:37 |
| philiKON | it's just a lot of work | 16:37 |
| ignas | the most radical change is not the packaging system, but the fact that everything that was in a sandbox (free to change and refactor) suddenly got released (uploaded to PyPi) | 16:37 |
| faassen | yes, there's no good way to do it yet. | 16:37 |
| ignas | and as with all the released software | 16:37 |
| ignas | it is difficult | 16:37 |
| ignas | to work on it in an agile manner | 16:38 |
| faassen | it's a ton of work right now, it's a pain to maintain it in a framework, etc, etc, it all needs to be worked out and we need patterns to manage it. | 16:38 |
| benji | philiKON: why are nailed versions in the buildout config a lot of work? it takes about 10 seconds to regenerate a totally up to date set of versions | 16:38 |
| faassen | benji: what recipe do you use? | 16:38 |
| regebro | faassen: Yeah, that's an annoyance, but that has more to do with the fast speed of change I think. | 16:38 |
| faassen | benji: you may have a way to do this in 10 seconds, but I certainly didn't know about this. documentation? :) | 16:38 |
| philiKON | faassen: lovely has a script | 16:38 |
| benji | faassen: no recipe, just run buildout -vvvvvvv and a little grep/sed (actully vim script) | 16:38 |
| elro | Umm.. it appears that zope.schema.Time has no widgets (in zope.app.form anyway) | 16:39 |
| regebro | As I mentioned on Europython, after being away from Grok for a month, nothing works anymore, and it tales me a day to get up to speed. But hey, that's the price of progress. :-) | 16:39 |
| faassen | benji: sorry, that's not a maintainable solution. that's something *you* can do easily. :) | 16:39 |
| benji | I know my vim skills are ledgendary, but you too can munge text files <wink> | 16:39 |
| *** malthe|away is now known as malthe | 16:39 | |
| philiKON | benji: we need Fred "Grok developer" Flintstone be able to deal with this too | 16:39 |
| regebro | I got to use virtualenv today, because I installed i18ndude. | 16:40 |
| faassen | benji: yes, me, call me Fred. | 16:40 |
| WebMaven | So who is Barney? | 16:40 |
| regebro | And it installed loads of zope 3.4 eggs. And hey, presto, I think all my zope-sites broke! | 16:40 |
| spython | so, no egg zope 3.3 eggs? just wondering | 16:40 |
| harobed | hi, why in apidoc, there aren't __init__ class information ? I read zope.publisher.browser.TestRequest and I don't see def __init__(self, path, body_instream=None, environ=None) in APIDOC | 16:40 |
| spython | *"so no zope 3.3 eggs" | 16:41 |
| faassen | benji: anyway, pinning doesn't work aut of the box if the framework developers want to do the pinning. | 16:41 |
| faassen | benji: we don't want this to be something all the separate application developers are *required* to care about. | 16:41 |
| benji | philiKON: I'd hope that anyone that can type can use grep; even so; a simple buildout-output-to-versions script would be trivial | 16:41 |
| regebro | spython: ??? | 16:41 |
| philiKON | benji: yeah, or a recipe | 16:41 |
| spython | regebro: just wondering if i can install zope-3.3 via eggs (easy_install) | 16:42 |
| benji | faassen: I think that's where philiKON's idea of using HTTP-gettable versions comes in; I don't have that need, so I haven't given it much thought | 16:42 |
| philiKON | spython: no | 16:42 |
| spython | ok danke | 16:42 |
| faassen | benji: saying that the solution is possible or that it's easy or that you have done it doesn't mean it's community standard practice. that takes communication, possibly code release, and such things. otherwise nobody actually *knows* what the hell to do. philipp and I only knew about version pinning 3 weeks ago! | 16:42 |
| philiKON | benji: it works as long as you're not on a train or plane wanting to do some development... | 16:42 |
| faassen | benji: yes, but maintaining a HTTP resource separate to egg releases sucks. :) | 16:42 |
| benji | faassen: <shrug> | 16:42 |
| faassen | benji: yes, that's a typical response on this channel, shrug. :) | 16:43 |
| philiKON | faassen: you should read what tres has to say about developer convenience in this :) | 16:43 |
| regebro | spython: Well, there aren't that many of them, and you would have to specify that you want the 3.3 version and so on. It's probably possible, but I wouldn't be able to tell you how. And besides, wy would you want to? | 16:43 |
| faassen | benji: but it's not my response anymore. anyway, you shrug and we'll solve it. :) | 16:43 |
| benji | philiKON: true; in that case giving the end-developer a versions file they can use (and change if they wish) sounds like a good idea | 16:43 |
| spython | philiKON: so everyone's that are using z3c.form and other neat stuff are running zope-3.4b ? | 16:43 |
| faassen | philiKON: where does he say what? | 16:43 |
| regebro | spython: Oh, now I see that you said *via* eggs. No you can't. | 16:43 |
| philiKON | spython: yup | 16:43 |
| faassen | philiKON: I mean, which list, when, where? | 16:44 |
| philiKON | faassen: zope3-dev | 16:44 |
| faassen | philiKON: recently? | 16:44 |
| philiKON | (originated on zope-cmf, i started cc'ing zope3-dev) | 16:44 |
| philiKON | yes | 16:44 |
| philiKON | today | 16:44 |
| spython | alright, thanks for your time in this busy moment it seems, i'll step back now | 16:44 |
| spython | :) | 16:44 |
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| elro | Has anyone ever used a Time field as a form field? I have a suspicion that if there is no widget in zope.app.form then there is not widget anywhere | 16:44 |
| faassen | philiKON: Tres seems to be specifying a ton of complications? I just want to release a grok that continues to work for a week. :) | 16:46 |
| philiKON | faassen: i'm just encouraging you to share your views on this matter | 16:46 |
| philiKON | :) | 16:46 |
| philiKON | i think we can only solve this well if we all pull on the same rope | 16:46 |
| ignas | faassen: get a buildbot ;) | 16:47 |
| ignas | faassen: works for me, i have to fix things time to time, but schooltool has a pretty good "uptime" | 16:47 |
| ignas | buildout with pinned versions + buildbot are the most reliable way to do it i have found yet | 16:48 |
| mgedmin | buildbot and buildout have names that are too much alike | 16:48 |
| benji | ignas: yep; I also like the idea of a non-nailed buildbot run to see how things are on the bleeding edge | 16:49 |
| ignas | though we (schooltool) were expecting Zope3.4 egg set to get packaged for debian | 16:49 |
| ignas | and would have used that as a stable base set of eggs | 16:49 |
| ignas | it didn't happen though, but someone will have to do a lot of work to assemble a stable set of eggs for a release into any linux distribution ... | 16:50 |
| ignas | because I am afraid it will not "emerge" from the chaos by itself | 16:50 |
| faassen | I'm not talking about *testing* whether it works. | 16:50 |
| faassen | I can do this. | 16:50 |
| faassen | I'm talking about *releasing* a framework that continues to work after a few days. The only way I can do this is if I can specify explicitly what versions it requires and that all applications that reuse this framework take this into account. | 16:51 |
| faassen | there should be a way to disable this feature and do your own dependencies if you want to, but that should be the default way it works. | 16:51 |
| faassen | otherwise we cannot release a framework and expect it to work after 2 days. | 16:51 |
| faassen | because someone might've released an egg that breaks it. this is not theory, this is what has been happening. | 16:51 |
| ignas | oh, you mean "package" | 16:52 |
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| ignas | so that people would use the same grok egg instead of downloading a new one every 2 days | 16:53 |
| faassen | ignas: yes, if they use grok 0.11, they use the same set of eggs. | 16:53 |
| faassen | ignas: including all eggs grok depends on. | 16:53 |
| ignas | pin them in buildout.cfg you are generating, and maybe even go as far as to download all the eggs | 16:53 |
| faassen | ignas: if they have applications that uses grok 0.11, those applications also use the same eggs. | 16:53 |
| ignas | and put them in grok website | 16:53 |
| ignas | so they would always be available | 16:53 |
| faassen | ignas: you can't pin it. I can't expect every user of grok to copy a pinned list! | 16:53 |
| ignas | and put the find_link | 16:53 |
| ignas | grokproject ? | 16:54 |
| ignas | and you can pin version in setup.py | 16:54 |
| ignas | can't you? | 16:54 |
| faassen | ignas: no, my individual grok application needs to say: I am using grok 0.11, please use all eggs defined by such, exact versions. | 16:54 |
| faassen | ignas: yes, you can pin in setup.py, but that locks people in dramatically into exact versions. it may be what we end up doing for now, though. :( | 16:54 |
| mgedmin | faassen: it would help if we had periodic releases (say, every 6 months) of a set of eggs that have been tested to work together | 16:54 |
| faassen | ignas: you want to pin people down, but you don't want to lock them in forever. | 16:54 |
| faassen | mgedmin: yes, that's the testing issue. but we can take care of this with grok for now. | 16:55 |
| faassen | mgedmin: it's not the thing that is hurting. we can run the grok tests with a set of eggs and pin them down. | 16:55 |
| ignas | faassen: so you release grok 0.12 | 16:55 |
| ignas | and ti has an updated list of eggs | 16:55 |
| faassen | ignas: yes, I proposed this, but philipp doesn't agree. :) | 16:55 |
| faassen | ignas: but it may be what we need to be doing. | 16:55 |
| ignas | if Zope3 has no release managers for sets of eggs, you will have to release your own sets of eggs | 16:56 |
| faassen | ignas: philipp makes the argument that this locks people in when they develop their own app. if they know what they're doing this should be able to user a newer version of a particular dependency explicitly. | 16:56 |
| faassen | ignas: but yes, that's what I have been advocating. :) | 16:56 |
| ignas | i'd just enforce buildout on them ;) | 16:57 |
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| ignas | and make grokproject the single entry point | 16:57 |
| ignas | it depends on 2-3 eggs only | 16:57 |
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| faassen | ignas: we can't put this list of dependencies in grokproject? | 16:58 |
| faassen | ignas: we need to put it in grok's setup.py, right? | 16:58 |
| ignas | yes you can | 16:58 |
| ignas | you can put it into a template | 16:58 |
| ignas | that gets generated by grokproject | 16:59 |
| ignas | and then people can unpin whatever they like | 16:59 |
| ignas | and learning how to pin dependencies is good for them anyway ;) | 16:59 |
| mgedmin | and poor people will be forced to maintain that version list forever? | 16:59 |
| mgedmin | or do you propose a tool that can upgrade to a newer stable tested set of versions? | 16:59 |
| ignas | mgedmin: yes, because it's their application ;) | 16:59 |
| faassen | mgedmin: I agree with your objection. | 16:59 |
| faassen | the poor people should have a way to upgrade to grok 0.11 | 17:00 |
| faassen | by just saying, I wanna use grok 0.11 now, please. | 17:00 |
| faassen | it's also important in communication. | 17:00 |
| faassen | if you tell me, my application breaks, help! | 17:00 |
| faassen | and I say, which version of grok are you using. | 17:00 |
| faassen | and you say, grok 0.10 | 17:00 |
| faassen | I know a lot. | 17:00 |
| faassen | right now, I dno't. | 17:00 |
| faassen | as you might use any mix of dependencies there. | 17:00 |
| faassen | and if people are forced to maintain their own lists of dependencies, you'll have the same problem. | 17:00 |
| faassen | you'll have to ask: give me your complete list of dependencies. | 17:00 |
| ignas | so you want to know precise set of dependencies, and want to allow people to change that set if they want? | 17:00 |
| faassen | that's not very easy to talk about, so maintenance becomes harder. | 17:01 |
| faassen | ignas: yes. obviously the first is more important than the latter, but philipp and others have advocated the latter a lot. | 17:01 |
| ignas | you know that you can't have both? | 17:01 |
| faassen | ignas: and if you have a layered tree of dependencies, you might want to let some zope 3 egg determine *its* exact dependencies, and have grok depend on it, instead of grok having to maintain its own full list. | 17:01 |
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| faassen | ignas: actually we are pretty close to having both, as you can have a version section in buildout.cfg and refer to a list of versions over http. | 17:02 |
| faassen | ignas: but that's not ideal. | 17:02 |
| mgedmin | instead of an egg with a long list of versions you could have several repositories for eggs | 17:02 |
| mgedmin | eggs.zope.org/3.4 | 17:02 |
| faassen | mgedmin: that's an idea, though that sort of breaks if you want to use the cheeseshop, right? | 17:02 |
| mgedmin | eggs.zope.org/development | 17:02 |
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| mgedmin | you could upload the latest stable release to cheeseshop | 17:03 |
| faassen | mgedmin: plus it requires all kinds of ways to manage these repositories. I prefer to maintain lists in svn. :) | 17:03 |
| faassen | mgedmin: I think the lists should be maintained close to the things they talk about, i.e. the packages. | 17:03 |
| baijum | mgedmin, btw, sm has fixed wiki indexing problem | 17:04 |
| mgedmin | yay | 17:04 |
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| baijum | srichter,projekt01: Done ! Now you must be owners of more that 90 packages in PyPI ;) | 17:25 |
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| * baijum leaving, good night all ! | 17:28 | |
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| sm-afk | morning all.. mgedmin, I wondered how did you notice the problem ? did you expect google to index some page quicker ? | 18:23 |
| *** sm-afk is now known as sm | 18:23 | |
| mgedmin | yes, the foliage sprint wiki page | 18:23 |
| mgedmin | I was really surprised not to find it on the front page on google | 18:23 |
| mgedmin | when my blog entry about it appeared in 8th position five minutes after I blogged | 18:24 |
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| mgedmin | then I started looking for robots.txt and decided to take a look at the <head> | 18:24 |
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| sm | thanks for noticing.. I posted about it at http://wiki.zope.org/AboutThisSite#bottom | 18:26 |
| sm | I expect when google hits us again active pages should start appearing there quicker | 18:26 |
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| mgedmin | ah, it was a spam-prevention feature | 18:28 |
| mgedmin | interesting | 18:28 |
| sm | yup | 18:28 |
| mgedmin | I thought the zope servers were being hammered by bots and someone hacked in those headers as a relief | 18:28 |
| sm | that may have been part of it too.. but I think google fetches the page either way | 18:29 |
| sm | if there's no robots.txt | 18:29 |
| mgedmin | what about the <a rel="nofollow" href=...> solution for spam? | 18:29 |
| sm | I never heard it was very effective | 18:30 |
| * sm reads up on it | 18:33 | |
| mgedmin | http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2005/01/preventing-comment-spam.html | 18:33 |
| sm | thanks, andhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nofollow | 18:33 |
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| WebMaven | nofollow prevents spammers from getting most of the *benefit* of spam... but you can't assume they care enough about any individual site to not spam it. | 18:42 |
| mgedmin | yes, but the same applies to <meta robots noindex> | 18:43 |
| WebMaven | it is easier to spam everything they can, rather than focus on the sites that give them benefit. | 18:43 |
| WebMaven | no, because they can more easily tell that spamming that site is pointless. | 18:44 |
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| WebMaven | it won't stop a spammer from crawling the site, of course. | 18:44 |
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| * sm opens http://zwiki.org/1385RelNofollowForUserSubmittedLinks | 18:44 | |
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| sm | we've been *hushed voice* blessedly free from spam on the zope wikis recently | 18:46 |
| sm | the username requirement stops most of it | 18:47 |
| sm | "all edits" subscribers catch the rest | 18:47 |
| sm | now they'll have to respond a bit quicker to keep spam links out of google, that's all | 18:48 |
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| sm | any other zope3 wiki needs, while we're talking about it ? | 18:49 |
| WebMaven | 'all edits by'? | 18:50 |
| benji | sm: I've threatend to delete about 80% of the content (that which is out of date); you can do that if you want <wink> | 18:50 |
| sm | WebMaven: I meant wiki subscribers who select "all edits", therefore see the spam edits | 18:51 |
| sm | benji: no time, unless you want to work on it together.. that could go fast | 18:52 |
| WebMaven | yes, I know. I was answering the Q about needed functionality. | 18:52 |
| sm | ah | 18:52 |
| sm | benji: a cleanup would be great | 18:52 |
| WebMaven | a link (on a username) that showed all edits made by that user would be hlpful. | 18:53 |
| WebMaven | helpful. | 18:53 |
| sm | including past edits ? not just pages for which they are the last editor ? | 18:54 |
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| sm | http://zwiki.org/1386ShowAllEditsMadeByAUser | 19:00 |
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| WebMaven | sm: yes | 19:04 |
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| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o srichter | 19:04 | |
| sm | thanks WebMaven.. can you say what is difficult right now without it ? | 19:05 |
| sm | that would help me prioritise it | 19:05 |
| WebMaven | "What is user X involved in?" | 19:05 |
| sm | ok | 19:06 |
| WebMaven | "User X just mae a spam edit, what other edits have they done?" | 19:06 |
| sm | we do have a /expungeEditsEverywhereBy?username=... , which managers can use for cleanup | 19:06 |
| sm | but not a user-visible listing | 19:06 |
| srichter | J1m: We have a working version of static APIDOC; whom do I have to contact to get this uploaded to let's say apidoc.zope3.org | 19:06 |
| WebMaven | ouch, that's dangerous. | 19:06 |
| srichter | sm: ^ Are you one of the web masters for zope3.org? | 19:07 |
| sm | that's why it's managers only | 19:07 |
| sm | hi srichter.. no | 19:07 |
| WebMaven | sm: since you can fake the name. | 19:07 |
| sm | srichter: actually, there is no zope3.org ? | 19:07 |
| sm | if you mean the zope3 wiki ? then yes | 19:07 |
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| WebMaven | sm: there are also some forms of introspection into a wiki based on IP addresses. | 19:09 |
| J1m | srichter, cool! | 19:09 |
| WebMaven | ie. IP addresses from User, Users from IP, edits from IP. | 19:09 |
| J1m | srichter, I could give you a folder on zope.org. | 19:10 |
| sm | WebMaven: good idea | 19:10 |
| sm | so far we haven't needed it enough to prioritise that | 19:11 |
| WebMaven | sm: I'd consider those lower priority unless concerted endemic spamming is ocuring. | 19:11 |
| sm | yup | 19:11 |
| J1m | srichter, is there any chance that using the tool to generate api documentation for just a package that could be incorporated into the package's documentation on pypi? | 19:11 |
| WebMaven | but edits by user is more generally useful. | 19:11 |
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| ignas | someone should upgrade the search on PyPI | 19:13 |
| ignas | zope is literally hijacking it at the moment | 19:13 |
| ignas | as it is substring based | 19:13 |
| ignas | so the longer the documentation | 19:13 |
| ignas | the higher chances of showing up in search results | 19:14 |
| ignas | ... | 19:14 |
| ignas | buildout shows up as one of the top hits for table, because it has "executable" mentioned a lot in it's readme.txt | 19:14 |
| ignas | adding more information about pypi will make most zope3 eggs show up no matter what you search for :/ | 19:15 |
| ignas | s/about pypi/to pypi | 19:15 |
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| philiKON | srichter: you can contact me to have it on grok.zope.org :) | 19:16 |
| philiKON | srichter: i wasn't aware there were plans for zope3.org | 19:16 |
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| elro | Could someone take a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope3/+bug/144838 - it's a patch for zope.app.form with widgets for Time fields | 19:19 |
| * elro should probably get round to signing a contributor agreement | 19:22 | |
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| philiKON | elro: +1 :) | 19:25 |
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| ignas | +1 if you add a unit test for parsing code | 19:27 |
| philiKON | -1 to the parsing code | 19:27 |
| * philiKON responds via email | 19:27 | |
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| mgedmin | ouch | 19:28 |
| mgedmin | the launchpad bug is unreadable :/ | 19:28 |
| elro | launchpad has no option to attach a file | 19:29 |
| elro | so I had to paste inline | 19:29 |
| ignas | elro: really? | 19:29 |
| ignas | but it has | 19:29 |
| elro | looks fine on safari to me | 19:29 |
| philiKON | the launchpad UI just sucks | 19:29 |
| elro | ah yes, but only once you have posted the bug | 19:29 |
| philiKON | mgedmin: the email looks just fine :) | 19:29 |
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| philiKON | elro: replied via email. might take some time before it reaches you | 19:30 |
| elro | philiKON: what should the parsing code be instead? | 19:30 |
| philiKON | see my email. | 19:30 |
| philiKON | it has shown up on the bug page already | 19:30 |
| philiKON | elro: basically, don't re-invent the wheel | 19:31 |
| philiKON | especially if your wheel is a clunky, untested one :) | 19:31 |
| elro | didn't know that existed | 19:31 |
| philiKON | you could've looked at the datetime widget | 19:31 |
| philiKON | which could've lead you to zope.datetime | 19:31 |
| elro | hmm. datetime.time has no utcfromtimestamp method | 19:33 |
| elro | datetime.datetime.time() wil do though | 19:34 |
| ignas | from pytz import utc; utc.localize(timestamp) | 19:35 |
| ignas | if you want to "utc" it | 19:35 |
| elro | missed it because the DatetimeWidget does it's conversion on the field | 19:35 |
| ignas | you better be sure that the time that was entered is utc | 19:36 |
| elro | times should not be treated as being in any particular time zope | 19:36 |
| elro | zone | 19:36 |
| elro | you don't know what time of year it applies to | 19:36 |
| ignas | why would you need utcfromtimestamp then? | 19:36 |
| philiKON | projekt01: ping | 19:37 |
| elro | fromtimestamp puts it in the local machines time | 19:37 |
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| ignas | so you want to convert a timestamp, that you know is a utctimestamp into a datetime object that is utc | 19:39 |
| elro | no, I want a timezone naive time | 19:39 |
| elro | I don't have that info, I don't want to claim I have it | 19:40 |
| elro | I want a datetime.time object, not a datetime.datetime | 19:40 |
| ignas | and what is the input? | 19:40 |
| elro | text from the user. a zope.schema.Time field | 19:41 |
| elro | I need to record the time of a trade to satisfy reporting requirements, and put this into a database with a time column | 19:42 |
| projekt01 | philiKON, yes | 19:44 |
| philiKON | projekt01: btw, a tip | 19:44 |
| * projekt01 is fixing my broken egg | 19:44 | |
| projekt01 | yup | 19:44 |
| philiKON | projekt01: i suggest changing setup.py and CHANGES.txt after a release so that it says the *next* version | 19:44 |
| philiKON | projekt01: so let's say you just released 3.4.0, then change setup.py to say version="3.4.1dev" | 19:45 |
| philiKON | and add a new entry in CHANGES.txt | 19:45 |
| philiKON | with "unreleased" as date | 19:45 |
| philiKON | this should prevent skipping releases (like you accidentally did today) or doing them double (like J1m accidentally did today) | 19:45 |
| philiKON | all documented here: http://svn.zope.org/*checkout*/Sandbox/philikon/foundation/maintaining-software.txt | 19:45 |
| elro | cool, neither datetime.datetime.utcfromtimestamp or fromtimestamp add tzinfo for a plain time | 19:46 |
| projekt01 | philiKON, agreed, just need to get comfortable with the process ;-) | 19:46 |
| philiKON | projekt01: sure. | 19:46 |
| philiKON | projekt01: that's why i'm saying it :) | 19:46 |
| projekt01 | philiKON, np, btw, I'm happy again | 19:47 |
| philiKON | phew ;) | 19:47 |
| projekt01 | I hacked my IPhone | 19:47 |
| philiKON | hahaha | 19:47 |
| philiKON | jodok has one too :) | 19:47 |
| projekt01 | And installed pyhotn 2.5 on it | 19:47 |
| projekt01 | yes | 19:47 |
| projekt01 | Hope to get Zope3 running on it ;-) | 19:48 |
| philiKON | projekt01: anyway, i can understand the frustration. but that's no reason to yell at each other :). it's not like the eggs are news from yesterday. we've had them for a while now | 19:48 |
| philiKON | and some of us are actually working on trying to improve the siutation | 19:48 |
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| ignas | o snap, that code might be buggy | 19:48 |
| ignas | not 100% guarantee though | 19:49 |
| projekt01 | yes, sorry about that, you did a good job with helping with documentation etc. | 19:49 |
| ignas | it is saying that it will return utc timestamp, but is using time.localtime() to get the date | 19:49 |
| ignas | elro: it is not returning a UTC timestamp | 19:50 |
| ignas | elro: the parsing function gives you a timestamp that when parsed with fromtimestamp gives you the same date that is on the server, and the time entered | 19:50 |
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| elro | yep, so I should use fromtimestamp. | 19:52 |
| ignas | until someone will fix the function ;) | 19:53 |
| ignas | to return a timestamp in UTC | 19:53 |
| ignas | i might be wrong though | 19:53 |
| ignas | and it might be that fromtimestamp takes the timezone i am in into account | 19:54 |
| philiKON | projekt01: i'm waiting for the iphone to come to germany officially. i can wait a couple of months | 19:54 |
| projekt01 | Yes, I heard they will sell it shortly in germany | 19:55 |
| projekt01 | but not in switzerland | 19:55 |
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| * J1m likes seeing people buy iPhones. In fact, they should buy 2. Or 3. | 19:58 | |
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| philiKON | J1m: so you can't? or so they get cheaper? :) | 19:59 |
| J1m | I have apple stock. :) | 20:00 |
| philiKON | haha | 20:00 |
| projekt01 | J1m ;-) | 20:00 |
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| spython | hi, in my simple AddForm i want to add the object i create in a utility instead of the folder the view was accessed from. Any ideas? | 20:06 |
| pcardune | spython: just override the add method | 20:10 |
| spython | I'm curious as to how you programmatically add to a container? I don't want to care about giving the object i'm adding a name | 20:11 |
| spython | pcardune: yes, so in add something like "getUtility(IMyUtil).add(myobj)" ? | 20:12 |
| spython | the utility is a folder | 20:12 |
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| pcardune | spython: you can use a namechooser | 20:14 |
| pcardune | I mean, every object that is added to a container *must* have a name associated with it | 20:15 |
| pcardune | it doesn't matter what the name is as long as it is unique | 20:15 |
| pcardune | you can adapt your container to INameChooser, and then use the chooseName method to generate a unique name | 20:15 |
| pcardune | I think the default name chooser uses the name of the class of the object and then append "-2" or "-3" to make it unique in the container | 20:16 |
| spython | ok, how can i access the default namechooser? the one that adds an incrementing number at the end for occupied names (foo1 foo2, foo3, etc..) | 20:16 |
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| spython | meh, i just think i'll read some source.. :) | 20:17 |
| spython | thanks | 20:17 |
| pcardune | spython: you simply adapt the container to it. i.e. name=INameChooser(folder).chooseName(obj); folder[name]=obj | 20:17 |
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| spython | pcardune great, works | 20:24 |
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| elro | right, it appears that zope.datetime.time is buggered | 20:34 |
| elro | it can't handle a time with seconds | 20:34 |
| elro | i.e. what datetime.time.isoformat returns | 20:35 |
| * elro is off | 20:41 | |
| philiKON | projekt01: piong | 20:50 |
| philiKON | projekt01: ping | 20:50 |
| philiKON | srichter: ping | 20:54 |
| philiKON | mgedmin: ping? | 20:55 |
| philiKON | somebody from the sprint please? | 20:56 |
| mgedmin | philiKON: pong? | 20:56 |
| philiKON | can you please get projekt01 to irc | 20:57 |
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| * mgedmin will try | 20:57 | |
| philiKON | thanks | 20:57 |
| projekt01 | philiKON, yes | 20:57 |
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| philiKON | projekt01: the zope.app.publication 3.4.0 egg you released is faulty | 20:58 |
| philiKON | it's missing meta.zcml | 20:58 |
| philiKON | all of our biuldouts are breaking | 20:58 |
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| projekt01 | what did I miss? | 20:59 |
| philiKON | no idea | 20:59 |
| philiKON | it's just breaking | 20:59 |
| philiKON | projekt01: and the zope.app.session 3.4.0 egg is also broken | 20:59 |
| philiKON | the ZIP file is missing CHANGES.txt | 20:59 |
| philiKON | but setup.py needs it | 20:59 |
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| philiKON | please fix this too | 20:59 |
| projekt01 | this is probably because we can't test it. | 21:00 |
| projekt01 | How do you test this? | 21:00 |
| philiKON | i created a new project | 21:00 |
| philiKON | and loads the zope.app.publication 3.4.0 egg | 21:00 |
| philiKON | and it won't start | 21:00 |
| philiKON | zope.app.zcmlfiles includes zope.app.publication/emta.zcml | 21:00 |
| philiKON | but it's not there | 21:00 |
| projekt01 | hm, is there a way to test this, I have no project which uses eggs? | 21:01 |
| philiKON | you can test it with zopeproject, for example | 21:01 |
| philiKON | projekt01: if you make me an owner of the zope.app.publication PyPI page, i can upload a new tarball | 21:02 |
| projekt01 | can we write a test which will test the basics? like the egg installation e.g. nissing files? | 21:02 |
| philiKON | it might be a windows issue? | 21:02 |
| projekt01 | I think it's my fault, I probably was running sdist and didn't delete the generated sdist folder if I was running it again | 21:02 |
| philiKON | right | 21:03 |
| philiKON | you always need to clear the 'build' directory | 21:03 |
| projekt01 | Does the sdist folder get deleted and created again if I run .. setup . sdist | 21:03 |
| philiKON | no | 21:03 |
| mgedmin | waaaah :( | 21:03 |
| philiKON | yes, i ran into that problem too | 21:03 |
| projekt01 | argh, Ok, then it's my fault not windows | 21:03 |
| philiKON | projekt01: also, don't forget zope.app.session | 21:03 |
| philiKON | this one is actually not even installable | 21:04 |
| philiKON | because CHANGES.txt is missing from the egg | 21:04 |
| mgedmin | is there a way to make setup.py sdist do the right thing always? | 21:04 |
| projekt01 | Yes, how can I grant you access on pypi? | 21:04 |
| philiKON | mgedmin: don't know | 21:04 |
| philiKON | projekt01: by going to PyPI and adding me to the owner role | 21:04 |
| * mgedmin looks for a wall to bang head against | 21:04 | |
| philiKON | projekt01: my name is philikon | 21:04 |
| philiKON | projekt01: so, about the missing CHANGES.txt file. You always need to first check in, *THEN* create the egg | 21:06 |
| philiKON | projekt01: setup.py looks only for files that are in subversion | 21:06 |
| philiKON | you shoudl really create the sdist from the tag | 21:06 |
| philiKON | a fresh checkout | 21:06 |
| philiKON | then neither the 'build' stuff nor the missing CHANGES.txt will happen | 21:07 |
| philiKON | argh | 21:08 |
| philiKON | zope.app.i18n is also missing configure.zcml | 21:08 |
| philiKON | projekt01: what did you do?!? | 21:08 |
| * mgedmin suggests a sprint topic: buildbot for zope 3 eggs | 21:08 | |
| philiKON | projekt01: i suspect all the eggs you created today are missing files | 21:09 |
| philiKON | they should be recreated | 21:09 |
| schwendinger | i have nailed zope.app.error = 3.4.1 | 21:09 |
| schwendinger | zope.app.publication = 3.4.0a1_2 | 21:09 |
| schwendinger | zope.app.i18n = 3.4.0a1 | 21:09 |
| schwendinger | zope.app.appsetup = 3.4.0a1 | 21:09 |
| schwendinger | zope.app.applicationcontrol = 3.4_dev_r73715 | 21:09 |
| schwendinger | now my app is working again | 21:09 |
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| * philiKON suggests that this gets fixed in a timely fashion. there's already complaints on zope3-users! | 21:10 | |
| philiKON | mgedmin: Theuni has a buildbot setup | 21:10 |
| projekt01 | just sdist a couple time, did recognize that I have to delete the old dist folder, so the packages will contain early files and not my changes. | 21:10 |
| projekt01 | did/did not | 21:10 |
| philiKON | mgedmin: that won't help if you don't create the eggs properly | 21:10 |
| mgedmin | philiKON: my idea was that it will email you and tell you that you haven't created the egg properly | 21:10 |
| philiKON | mgedmin: well, that'd be good | 21:11 |
| philiKON | or everybody just read my guide | 21:11 |
| philiKON | :) | 21:11 |
| mgedmin | won't work in practice | 21:11 |
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| mgedmin | if you don't automate it in some way | 21:11 |
| philiKON | i suppose | 21:11 |
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| mgedmin | (you could "automate" by having a person keep track of stuff and shout at people, if you find someone who has the energy for that) | 21:12 |
| ignas | ok, it seems that zope.datetime.time() is buggy | 21:12 |
| ignas | it returns timestamp thinking that the clock of your PC is set to UTC | 21:12 |
| ignas | so if you will run it with "20:15" as a parameter on PC's with different timezones set | 21:12 |
| philiKON | mgedmin: well, i'm doing that once in a while :) | 21:12 |
| ignas | you will get different timestamps, though unix timestamps should be identical among all the machines | 21:12 |
| mgedmin | good! | 21:12 |
| ignas | is it a bug in documentation or implementation? | 21:12 |
| philiKON | projekt01: and while i'm at it, zope.app.error produces a deprecation warning talking about "removal in zope 3.6". first of all, i don't think there'll be a zope 3.6 (at least it seems that nobody will want to continue making one big zope 3 releae), and second of all i thought we weren't going to remove stuff anymore | 21:13 |
| projekt01 | philiKON, I added you to a couple other packages on pypi | 21:15 |
| philiKON | projekt01: i'm not going to have time to do anything right now. it would've been fine it was just 1 package | 21:15 |
| philiKON | but i don't have time for 4 packages | 21:15 |
| philiKON | i think you should fix them... | 21:15 |
| philiKON | in fact, i need to get out of here | 21:16 |
| projekt01 | We are working on using zope without any app packages, J1m suggested that this should be the way to go. | 21:16 |
| philiKON | right | 21:16 |
| philiKON | but not deprecdation with removal | 21:16 |
| philiKON | i'm ok with deprecation | 21:16 |
| philiKON | but we won't remove stuff | 21:16 |
| projekt01 | This means app contains all the views and zmi relevant parts. | 21:16 |
| philiKON | yes, yes, i understand | 21:16 |
| philiKON | i'm talking about the message | 21:16 |
| philiKON | "This reference will be gone in Zope 3.6" | 21:16 |
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| projekt01 | we need a way to tell people that something is changing | 21:17 |
| philiKON | yes | 21:17 |
| philiKON | again, i said i'm fine the deprecation warning | 21:17 |
| philiKON | but we won't remove stuff | 21:17 |
| philiKON | there'll be no zope 3.6 and we won't remove it even if there were | 21:17 |
| philiKON | because we no longer break BBB | 21:17 |
| philiKON | (unless we really really have to, apparently() | 21:17 |
| philiKON | anyway | 21:17 |
| philiKON | please fix the eggs soon. it's ok if we discover broken eggs, but not everybody is as buildout-savvy as schwendinger | 21:18 |
| philiKON | and can nail versions | 21:18 |
| projekt01 | what should i do if I remove things like move classes from zope.app.error to zope.error? | 21:18 |
| philiKON | add deprecation warnings | 21:18 |
| projekt01 | I need to support this and give poeple time to following | 21:18 |
| philiKON | "This isn't the recommended location anymore. Use XYZ" | 21:18 |
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| philiKON | Just don't say "This will be removed by XXX" | 21:19 |
| projekt01 | No nail version will get us in trouble | 21:19 |
| philiKON | sigh. i'm going to say this in german now | 21:19 |
| projekt01 | why should we not support it for a longer time e.g. a year? | 21:19 |
| philiKON | because that's the policy now | 21:19 |
| philiKON | J1m wrote an email to zope3-dev | 21:19 |
| projekt01 | I should say it will get removed in 12 month | 21:19 |
| J1m | philiKON, we should say: "We may remove this someday.". Keep em guessing. :) | 21:20 |
| philiKON | J1m: ok | 21:20 |
| J1m | projekt01, remove what? | 21:20 |
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| projekt01 | zope.app.error.error classes | 21:20 |
| projekt01 | they are now in zope.error | 21:20 |
| philiKON | anyway, projekt01, this isn't the priority. the priority is getting the eggs fixed. they're breaking everybody's buildouts | 21:20 |
| * philiKON needs to leave | 21:20 | |
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| J1m | I'm not really paying attension, so I'll say this abstractly. | 21:20 |
| J1m | hm. | 21:21 |
| J1m | never mind, I'm not sure what I want to say. :) | 21:21 |
| projekt01 | I see | 21:21 |
| ignas | ok, zope.datetime.time is not outright buggy | 21:22 |
| J1m | No, Now I do.... | 21:22 |
| ignas | it's let's say documentation challenged | 21:22 |
| J1m | so zope.app.foo must either: | 21:22 |
| ignas | and test challenged a little bit too | 21:22 |
| J1m | - not have future releases, or | 21:22 |
| J1m | - be backward compatible. | 21:22 |
| J1m | iow future releases must be backward compatible. | 21:23 |
| ignas | J1m: does that include interegg backwards compatibility? | 21:23 |
| J1m | If there are new releases, they should build on zope.foo. | 21:23 |
| J1m | yes | 21:23 |
| J1m | ideally | 21:23 |
| ignas | so if i need to change function signature to fix a bug | 21:23 |
| J1m | This is my jusdgement, not an edict. :) | 21:23 |
| projekt01 | J1m, yes, that's what I do | 21:24 |
| ignas | and that function is only needed in another zope.app egg | 21:24 |
| projekt01 | I agree | 21:24 |
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| J1m | ignas, the external api needs to be BC. | 21:24 |
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| J1m | Leaving aside the fact that the api is not always well defined. :) | 21:25 |
| ignas | J1m: hmm, and what is external API? i have seen code that philikon said is not API, but it had deprecation warnings ... | 21:25 |
| J1m | Unfortunately, that is often gray. | 21:26 |
| ignas | so it's more of a "use common sense" and "don't break things too much" thing ;) | 21:26 |
| J1m | for example, people don't think of class names as part of an external api, but f the classes get pickled, then the names are externally visible. | 21:26 |
| J1m | This is a dark side of pickling. | 21:26 |
| J1m | ignas, we should try very hard not to break things at all. | 21:27 |
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| J1m | within reason --and if we screw up, we should fix it. | 21:27 |
| * ignas is trying not to touch Zope code at all ;) | 21:27 | |
| ignas | i mean going through committee, keeping it backwards compatible, checking out all the eggs, and uploading it back | 21:28 |
| J1m | If you want people to use your stuff, it shouldn't break. Almost makes you not want people to use your stuff. :) | 21:28 |
| ignas | is just too much for small bugfixes | 21:28 |
| benji | J1m: I look forward to your motivational speaking tour. | 21:29 |
| ignas | J1m: having to "release" something if you want to use the egg yourself is the biggest problem | 21:29 |
| ignas | if it's not "released" (Zope3 trunk checkout in good old days) | 21:29 |
| ignas | you fix it, and use it | 21:29 |
| ignas | now you fix it, and then release it, and as soon as your changes get released | 21:29 |
| ignas | it's a totally different thing | 21:29 |
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| J1m | In the good old days the zope3 trunk became a bit of a dumping ground. | 21:30 |
| ignas | but you could experiment with backwards incompatible changes for at least some time | 21:31 |
| ignas | and then make it backwards compatible before release | 21:31 |
| ignas | now there is no grace period | 21:31 |
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| ignas | it's either not available to anyone | 21:31 |
| ignas | or it's already a release | 21:31 |
| J1m | ignas, it's pretty easy to set up private repos. | 21:32 |
| J1m | or to use externals | 21:32 |
| ignas | well - it just decreases the ammount of testers, i mean - lot | 21:32 |
| ignas | lot's of people used zope trunk | 21:32 |
| ignas | but only 2-3 developers will use your private repo | 21:32 |
| ignas | i hope this will stabilize, with all the beta alpha and dev releases, with sane dependencies | 21:33 |
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| J1m | I guess I don't see your point. | 21:35 |
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| ignas | well - during the timespan between Zope3.2 and Zope3.3 at least some of the things got broken, same for Zope3.3 -> Zope3.4, and most of these breakages got fixed only before the release | 21:43 |
| ignas | so even if the switch required some effort | 21:43 |
| ignas | you could chose when it will happen, and it was bearable | 21:43 |
| ignas | now we will have a lot of small upgrades | 21:43 |
| ignas | without a stable checkpoint | 21:44 |
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| ignas | anyway, just a small warning - zope.datetime.time() assumes server local timezone if no timezone is passed | 21:50 |
| ignas | which might cause trouble, just like datetime.datetime.today() | 21:52 |
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