IRC log of #zope3-dev for Wednesday, 2007-10-24

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pani have little problem (hey, how many ppl say that here ;-)). Im trying to create objects and place them in some folder. Im using formlibs for creating objects and applyChanges for write data from form to this object. And for now it is ok. Under ZMI i created folder (for example Folder1). Now the tricky question - how can i put this object in this folder? how can i get this folder object from zope?00:52
pani didnt specify constraints in interfaces, becouse i would like to put this object under few folders. im not sure if it ok?00:53
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pananybody alive?00:58
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smhi pan01:03
panhi sm :-)01:04
smI don't know formlibs01:04
smI know you can do that sort of thing using the OFS api.. one way to discover that is to look at what the ZMI forms do01:05
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panOFS api?01:05
panim googling for that01:05
panbut sm... perhaps i will tell you what i want to achive, and you will tell me if am right.. perhaps i have some problems with understand of zope3 architecture... can it be?01:06
smsounds good01:06
sm(I went to , searched for OFS, clicked first link, then Folder01:07
smok, you're using zope3. so ignore my answers :)01:07
panhehe ;-)01:07
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panbut you know zope3?01:07
smnot very well01:07
pani see. ok. here it goes: i will try to describe it on some example. i have users and roles (in my own application, not roles in zope)01:08
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pannow, that i later want to search on user and roles and so on i create folders, for example FolderUser, FolderRole, right?01:08
panand later, i want to connect Roles and Users. User1 will have Role1 and Role2, User2 will have Role1 and Role3 (just example).01:09
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panas i understand i have to create new Folder, for example UserRoles01:10
panwhere i will have Folders named as users and under those foleders i will have roles objects01:10
panam i right?01:10
smack, I'm even on the #zope3-dev channel.. thought it was #zope01:11
* sm waits for expert advice01:11
panlater, if i will want to list for example roles of user i will have to open UserRoles folder, find folder thats name is like user and check it contents (that will be role objects)01:12
panis that ok for now?01:12
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smisn't there an existing user/roles lib that you might use ?01:17
panthis is just example. im talking about thing that: you have a class, b class, c class. and you want to connect between them01:18
panhow to do that01:18
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smI would guess either containment, or the relation manager that is probably described in the zope 3 books01:24
panim reading zope3 books, api, and all tutorials and everything what i can find but i didnt hear about realtion manager ?01:25
smlooking in the one on my bookshelf.. well, not there01:25
smI'm going from old proposals I found on the zope3 wiki01:25
panwhere it is?01:26
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sm .. I would wait for a better answer here and/or try the mail ist01:27
smthe answer will be simple01:31
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pansm: i got how to do that ;-)01:58
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fdrakeCan someone with PyPI privs for add me to that project?02:47
fdrakeTime to make a release.  ;-)02:47
fdrakePyPI says the following people can do that: srichter, projekt01, ctheune, J1m, baijum02:48
* fdrake suspects srichter isn't really here right now...02:48
srichterfdrake: actually I am ;-)02:51
fdrakeAha!  The truth will out!02:51
srichterfdrake: you are all set02:52
fdrakeWhee!  All done.  ;-)02:52
srichterI am working on the packages again too02:53
fdrakeHeh.  I'm just trying to get rid of deprecation warnings so I can see if the tests for my projects are passing.  ;-)02:53
srichterfdrake: yep02:54
fdrakeCan't see the forest for the deprecations....02:54
srichterfdrake: btw, can Jim's sourcerelease work be used to create a Zope 3.4 source release?02:54
fdrakeNo idea; I only glanced briefly at the README in the commit message just now.02:55
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fdrakeI think Benji might know a little more about it, but it didn't sound like he knew much about it.02:55
srichterfdrake: me too ;-)02:56
fdrakeLooks like I'll need to release, too.02:57
* fdrake goes to look more carefully....02:57
fdrakeYeah, I'll need PyPI privs for that one too.02:58
srichterfdrake: you are set on z.a.authentication too02:58
fdrakeHow about while we're at it?  ;-)  Looks like I'm getting one from there too.03:02
fdrakeIf I'm not careful, my package list will be almost as long as Jim's real soon now...  ;-)03:03
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fdrakesrichter: I'm going to let you take care of  ;-)03:21
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fdrakeJ1m!  I need PyPI access to now, too.  ;-)03:33
srichterfdrake: I should write a testbrowser script to add someone to all projects I can add roles for03:34
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srichterfdrake: z.a.i18n done03:34
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fdrakeJ1m: nevermind...03:35
ignasanyone familiar with CAS authentication?03:39
fdrakeArgh!'s README.txt and PyPI (" register") don't get along.  :-(03:39
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smgood pan.. so what was the answer ?03:46
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srichterfdrake: yeah, that happened to me too03:53
srichterfdrake: if that happens, I XML escape the text03:53
srichterthen it is uploaded in plain text03:54
fdrakefound it... someone must have edited the text with a Mac.03:54
srichteroh, darn03:54
fdrakeThere was a checkmark instead of a V, and I broke that when I edited it (on a Mac too, no less).03:54
fdrakeAnd finally, I can see the test layer setup noise from the test runner.  ;-)03:56
srichterhe he03:57
fdrakesrichter: Are you planning on an apidoc release tonight?04:05
fdrakeThat's one of the two remaining deprecation warnings I'm seeing.04:05
fdrakeI fixed the warning on the trunk, but haven't cut a release.04:06
fdrakeHoping that you'd do one soon enough. ;-)04:06
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tjsanyone using zopeproject?04:09
srichterfdrake: I am working down the unreleased list first04:10
fdrakeThere's a list?04:10
tjswondering if anyone has configured buildbot to handle buildout/test layers04:10
srichterfdrake: yeah04:10
fdrakeOk, well... I'll cut an apidoc release then.  Just to be selfish.  ;-)04:11
srichterfdrake: actually, thanks04:11
fdrakeHmm.  Some of the ones I've released should probably go in the Zope 3 mongo-checkout, if that's still being maintained.04:12
fdrakeHaven't used it in quite a while myself.04:13
srichterfdrake: actually, have you looked at the Zope 3.4 index I have been building?04:14
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fdrakeIs that
srichterno, it is an index like ppix, but it locks in versions04:15
fdrakeAh, no, I've mostly ignored that discussion, 'cause it confuses me.04:16
fdrakeI don't think I could use a raw 3.4 anyway.04:16
fdrake(Even with the added packages for my apps.)04:16
srichterwell, but you probably want to use a stable working set :-)04:16
fdrakeThere are a bunch of things that I use more up-to-date versions than are going to be in 3.4.04:17
srichteryou can still do that04:17
fdrakeI'd say the set I'm using is stable.  Just has too many deprecation warnings.  ;-)04:17
srichterwell, but you have to maintain it and it will not do bug release updates for you04:18
fdrakeYes, but once I've overridden enough versions to get new feature releases, the original set doesn't mean much.04:18
fdrakeI don't want it to do bug release updates; those are still updates.04:18
fdrakeUpdates are bad.  ;-)04:19
srichterok, if you think so04:19
fdrakeAny update is a change, and change is risk.04:20
fdrakeWe have to manage that very carefully.04:20
srichterbut depending on the type of update the risk level changes dramatically04:20
fdrakeOnly introducing change when needed helps is control when we have "general update" changes.04:20
fdrakeYes, agreed.04:21
srichterand that actually makes using a common stable set that much more important, so that you are not the only one maintaining it04:21
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srichterthe Zope 3.4 index has a version.cfg file that you can download to lock all versions04:21
fdrakeIf you stay fairly close to one "known good set", that's probably a reasonable approach to take.04:23
fdrakeGetting near that after there's been so much wild-west in the satellite package releases isn't trivial.04:23
fdrakesrichter: I'll need privs for, too.  ;-)04:25
fdrakesrichter: And
srichterfdrake: done04:27
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fdrakeWe deprecate too much in Zope 3.  :-/04:47
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srichterfdrake: we just did it without having something stable to work with05:00
srichtercurrent deprecations are usually just simple moves05:00
fdrakeYes, but they are a lot of them, and many of the packages were in use.05:00
srichterright, that's were the missing stable set comes inplace05:01
srichterI think once we have that stable set, things will become much more sane05:01
fdrakeI think as soon as packages are non-alpha, they shouldn't grow more deprecation warnings.05:02
fdrakeI think *that* has been violated a few times with all the moves.05:03
srichterfdrake: so how do we progress then?05:03
srichterI did a mistake in advising Roger to not make a new major version after the changes05:03
fdrakeIf something should be moved, it can be, but the old entry point should be maintained without a deprecation warning.05:04
srichterI definitely learned that05:04
srichterhuh, interesting05:04
fdrakeBecause it's already part of the public API at that point.05:04
fdrake"beta" means the API is frozen, and a deprecation warning means the API is changing.05:05
srichterbut you need to be able to change public API sometimes05:05
fdrakeYou can extend the API (with a new feature release); you can't remove API.05:05
fdrakeA deprecation is a removal in the future.05:06
srichterbut what if the API is wrong?05:06
fdrakeThen create a new one that isn't.05:06
srichterthen you have package proliferation, which I think is a worse issue05:07
fdrakeIf it's really wrong, it should be discovered before beta.05:07
srichterI disagree05:07
srichterthat's programming with anticipation05:07
fdrakeSo add the new API to an existing package, and make a new feature release.05:07
srichterwhen we originally started the CA, we could have never thought that services and views are superfluous concepts, for example05:08
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fdrakeYou can document away the old API, but removing it is a really big deal.05:08
fdrakeI also worry about package proliferation far less than you do, I think.05:08
srichteryeah, I think we value API removal versus package proliferation differently05:09
fdrakeI've also no objection to a package providing many APIs to some underlying functionality.05:10
fdrakeSome may fall out of favor if others are easier to use and/or more powerful.05:10
fdrakeBut code that found the older API sufficient should continue to be happy with it.05:11
srichterI think this should be publically discussed on the mailing list, so that we can get a policy set in stone05:11
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srichterthe problem with that last argument is that you will grow more and more incompatible05:11
srichterI think an explicit deprecation/removal is less painful than an implicit one05:12
srichterimplicit in the sense, that other packages you want to use have the new API and you will eventually be forced to update, but you might not detect this easily05:13
fdrakeIt's been discussed a million times; it's the consensus that's the hard part.  ;-)05:13
fdrakeBut that's just it: I don't want other packages to be forced to update if the older API was sufficient for them.05:13
fdrakeThat's /exactly/ the point.05:14
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romanofskimorjens :)09:33
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harobedsince zope3-dev mailing list has moved to zope-dev nobody speak about Zope3 :(10:33
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timteharobed: or hopefully people are just busy10:59
harobedtimte: may be10:59
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arnarlwhat are the correct magic incantations to create an egg from a zopeproject created application?15:09
arnarlI tried 'python bdist_egg', but that only packaged the python files.15:10
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baijumarnarl, May be you can use PastScript as used in
arnarlbaijum: thnx, checking it out now16:01
baijumarnarl, welcome !16:01
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arnarlah, I was missing a file16:15
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arnarlbaijum: thnx again. That solved it16:15
baijumarnarl, np16:16
srichterJ1m: good morning; can zc.sourcerelease -- once done -- be used to create a Zope 3.4 tar ball, or is it for producing source releases that do not have incorrect PYC files?16:16
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J1msrichter, It could be used to create Zope source releases.16:51
srichterJ1m: cool16:52
J1mNote that they will still be egg based, which is a significant departure from the original plan for 3.4.16:52
srichterI see; maybe we can do both16:52
J1mzc.sourcerelease mainly allows the downloads to be done up front.16:52
srichterno seriously16:53
J1mno doubt :)16:53
srichteroh, but I like the downloads up-front feature16:53
J1mIt gives you a self-contained source release. Which is often needed,16:54
srichteryep, this is very cool16:55
srichterit also reduces the load on the package servers16:55
srichter... and dependence on their availability16:55
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J1mwe deploy via rpm in part for that reason.16:56
J1mthe source release will make bulding rpms saner.16:56
J1mBut we're also using internakl servers for many projects anyway.16:56
srichterthat's good news for all distribution packagers, I think16:56
srichterthey really do not like eggs too much yet16:56
J1mthey especially don't like how we use eggs.16:57
J1mThey don't mind distributing eggs using system packaging.16:57
J1mThey don't like that apps have their own eggs.16:57
* benji loves the internakl servers.16:57
* J1m loves the intranakl servers too16:58
J1mwithin nakls.16:58
benjias opposed to extranackular16:59
J1mYeah, that can be pretty unreliable.16:59
benjiThis is like the teletype version of the Jim and Benji Show.16:59
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pan_hello srichter, J1m, benji... nice to see somebody here alive :-)17:10
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pan_what is difference between catalog and folder?17:38
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pan_as i see in API, ICatalog has possibility of indexing...17:39
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J1mCatalog's primary purpose is to support indexes search.17:43
J1mIt happens to be a container of its indexes.17:43
J1mIt is not a general purpose container.17:43
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pan_So i should use folder instead of catalog?17:44
J1mIf you want a general purpose container, yes17:45
pan_But if i will later would like to search for some kind of objects in this folder?17:45
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J1mthen you would *also* use a catalog.17:46
pan_for example folder will be "Messages" and there will be some kind of messages for some users. and i will want to find messages for logged user.17:46
* J1m hopes this is covered in the book.17:46
pan_which one book :-) ?17:46
J1msorry, I don't have time to get this deeply engaged.17:46
pan_ok. sorry J1m. there is not to much help on net with zope3 :/17:47
pan_book for programmers on the site is deprecated, but yes, it gives some kind of vision how zope3 should work.17:47
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pan_my friend has this book. i borrowed it and read it. but i still dont understand some things. Folder/Catalogs and connecting objects are clearly explained17:49
pan_im talking about wordlcookery.17:49
pan_i mean "arent clearly expalined"17:49
J1mIf you bought the book, you would understand it. ;)17:49
J1mIn fact, it becomes clearer the more copies you buy. ;)17:50
pan_so, you are telling me to use zope3 opensource platform i should buy book, to understand HOW opensource platform is working =) ?17:50
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timtewhy not?17:51
pan_cos it is not correct with opensource rules ;-)17:51
timteor read tutorials and source code17:51
pan_"take windows for free, but to use it you should buy book!"17:51
timtedidn't know windows was free  :)17:52
pan_tutorials are simple and dont cover a lot of things :/ look on php/java/asp tutorials.. on zope3 wiki there is onle few, simple tutorials.17:52
pan_idea of containers/folders and so on is not clear for newbies. yesterday i spent 2 hours to discover, that to use folders i have to register them and use as utility ;-)17:53
J1mI guess you want one of us to take time off from earning a living to give you in-depth help for free. Good luck.17:53
J1mOf course, I was kidding about buying the book. You can tell by the winks. ";)".17:53
pan_J1m: no no. really not. sorry if it sounds like that.17:53
mgedmin_what sort of folders and how are you using them if you need those utility registrations?17:53
timtemessages = Folder()17:55
timtemessages['msg1'] = Message()17:55
mgedmin_lisppaste6: url17:55
lisppaste6To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.17:55
pan_mgedmin_: just simple example. i have users and those users will have some objects like i.e.: messages, pictures, texts. when user create new message, we have to connect this message with some other user, for whom this message is. right? so i have to put this in folder.17:55
pan_timte: yes. but you give me example with creating folder. but what when im creating object for existing folder?17:56
timtepan_: I added an object to the folder17:56
pan_timte: but you created folder before. when im creating object for folder and doing it from Web interface i dont want to create folder everytime, right?17:57
pan_i just want to put another object to existing folder. how i obtain exisiting folders?17:57
timtefirst you begin with some context17:58
timteor if you just want to play with it in the prompt you can start from 'root' which is the root folder17:58
timtepan_: when your code is called you often get a context which is the folder you are visiting for example17:59
pan_timte: i have site called 'site' in root folder. i have folder 'announcements'. i want to add new announcements to the folder. how i obtain folder in my action class?18:01
timteaction? do you mean browser view/page  ?18:01
pan_  <browser:page18:02
pan_      for=""18:02
pan_      name="moae.Announcement"18:02
pan_      class=".announcement.AnnouncementAdd"18:02
pan_      permission="zope.ManageContent"18:02
pan_      />18:02
timtein the AnnouncementAdd class you have self.context which is the folder18:02
pan_which one folder? root folder? or announcements?18:03
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pan_but this only works when i put "constrains" in interfaces, right?18:03
timtebrowser pages and views and adapters always have a context18:04
pan_yes. right.18:04
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timteand for browser pages context is the object you are visiting18:04
pan_but there is nowhere exaplined (even in the book) what i can do with context ;-)18:04
timteI'm quite sure there is  :)18:05
timteit depends what context is of course18:05
pan_so, when im in folder site which is folder of my site18:05
pan_and from there i click "Add" from ZMI18:06
pan_context will be object of my site18:06
pan_am i right?18:06
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pan_and if in my site (i.e. "site") is folder "announcements"18:06
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pan_i can do thing like folder = context["announcements"]18:07
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pan_folder["newannouncement"] = my_new_announcement_object18:07
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pan_thats correct?18:07
pan_im going to try it :-)18:08
timtesure, but I guess it would be better to have Add on the announcements folder itself18:08
pan_hm... but im using applyChanges function for that...18:08
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timtepan_: here is a url you can bookmark, maybe it doesnt help right now but maybe later  :)
pan_im bookmarking it right now, timte!18:13
pan_hm... trying to connect.18:14
pan_genicode:~# telnet 8018:14
pan_host is dead?18:14
timteworks here18:15
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pan_im trying to list context keys18:16
pan_like that:18:16
pan_        keys = self.context.keys()18:16
pan_AttributeError: '+' object has no attribute 'keys'18:16
pan_so it doesnt work like folder :/18:17
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pan_ - now working! :-) looking on this page.18:19
timtepan_: right, that adding view has add() if I remember correctly18:19
timtepan_: but self.context in that case is not a view18:20
pan_so it wont work like u said?18:20
timtepan_: that + in the url is a view18:20
pan_perhaps i will show you how i do it right now:18:21
mgedmin_adding views are "special"18:21
mgedmin_you want self.context.container18:21
mgedmin_check out the IAdding interface18:21
mgedmin_which is a virtual object, represented by the /+ in the url18:21
pan_going on api page.18:21
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pan_um: AttributeError: '+' object has no attribute 'container'18:23
pan_IAdding interface dont give me any chances to get folder where im adding object18:24
timteweird, self.context shouldn't be the view18:24
timtegotta go now18:24
pan_ok timte. thanks for help.18:25
pan_so im stucked...18:25
J1mtimte, add views are views of adding views.18:25
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mgedmin_hm, maybe it's self.context.context rather than self.context.container18:30
mgedmin_I don't remember18:30
mgedmin_I generally avoid adding views18:30
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pan_So who do you add objects? I just want to let users add objects to db.18:31
pan_um. how, not who ;-)18:33
pan_mgedmin_: it works! Where can i read about context object?18:33
pan_and possibilities what i can do with it :-) ?18:34
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tarekHi J1m, I have a question about zc.recipe.egg19:35
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tarekhow do I pass arguments to the egg, such as --no-deps19:36
amaronhow can i remove folders from debug mode?19:36
amaroni have some folders with outdated(changed) components, and cannot remove them from zmi19:37
amaroni'm trying to remove them from debug mode19:37
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J1mtarek, you can't.19:39
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J1mtarek, eggs don't actually take arguments, so that is moot.19:40
J1mwhen eggs are build from source, --no-deps is passd.19:40
J1mIt is the egg recipe that resolved dependencies.19:41
J1mIt might be useful and I think someone has already proposed having an option to ignore some dependencies.19:41
ignaswho deleted 3.4.0 from PYPI?19:42
tarekJ1m, ok i see, thx. +1 for the option19:43
* J1m is glad that tarek is a contributor. :)19:44
Pan^amaron: perhaps those folders are registered as utility. there can be problem with deleting them.19:44
Pan^try to unregister them.19:44
amaroni've just deleted entire site19:45
* benji makes a mental note to not hire amaron to manage his sites.19:46
amaronman, i'm getting tired of this zope19:46
amaronits to complex19:46
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Pan^amaron: dont worry, you will get it ;-)19:46
amarontwo weeks of learning and i'm to far of being able to efficiently using it19:47
amaron*use it19:47
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Pan^here three weeks of learning and im far too, but i wont give up ;-)19:47
amaroni have two more days to show something useful for my bosses19:48
Pan^i have 3 weeks to end core functions of big project ;-) we will make it! ;-)19:49
amaroni hope so19:49
amaronmy problem is when something goes wrong i have no idea whats the problem19:51
Pan^my problems are "how to do this with zope3 conventions" or "how the hell do it anyway"19:52
Pan^there should be more examples somewhere on the net.19:53
amaroni agree19:53
amaroni have one great book19:53
amaronand thats all19:54
Pan^i will make some after end of project. few simple projects that will help people understand what i couldnt. perhaps it will help some people.19:54
afd_Pan^: good examples of complete projects are zcontact and (
afd_there are some more on the net, I think19:55
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Pan^_afd_: didnt hear about it. i will check it. thanks a lot!19:56
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Pan^_afd_: wow. a lot of code! i think that will help me a lot :-) thanks once again19:57
Pan^_afd_: i didnt find on net any complex examples. just simple apps :/19:57
afd_Pan^: welcome19:59
ignas - a semi complete Zope3 project ;)19:59
Pan^_afd_: oh! there are examples with catalogs, lists and so on. damn! i need it so much ;-)20:00
Pan^_igans: let me check ;-)20:00
tarekJ1m, so if i get it well, this means adding an option in zc.buildout.easy_install module that adds '--no-deps'  ?20:00
ignasthe url to the current application trunk20:00
J1mtarek, no.20:01
Pan^_ignas: and src?20:01
J1mtarek, I'm not entorely sure what would be needed iinternally.20:01
Pan^_main sources are in src?20:01
J1mAs I said before, there aren't any relevent options for eggs.20:02
Pan^_ignas: yep. i get it.20:02
Pan^_ignas: looking :-)20:02
J1mThe issue really is whether we bother to resolve all of the dependencies.20:02
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J1mtarek, actually, getting this to work would requirte some deep setuptools voodoo, as it would require defeating some setuptools automation.20:03
Pan^_ignas: it looks complicated for me for now :-)20:03
J1mIt is non-trivial.20:03
Pan^_ignas: but i will sit on this to understand.20:03
tarekJ1m, the use case is : i need for example to install z3c.sqlalchemy, but it depends on zope.schema, it means it gets some zope3 package. Though if it's in a zope 2.xx buildout, it can brake it because zope.schema and friends are already embed into it20:04
tarekso my solution is rm -rf eggs/zope.* after the buildout ;)20:05
tarekbut i understand this is non trivlal as it is dependencies at egg-level20:06
J1mThere are a couple of ways to possibly trick setuptools.  You might be able to creae faux eggs for the bits that are already installed, so that setuptools things you already have them.  This might simply involve createing egg-info directories.20:08
J1mIn fact, maybe you can have a recipe that just installs egg-infor directories in some convenient place.20:08
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J1mThen you wouldn't have to modify the eggs recipe.20:09
J1mI understand your use case.20:09
tareki'll see what I can do thx20:09
J1mOf course, there's really no harm in installing the extra eggs is there?20:09
tarekactually there's is20:09
tarekfor example20:09
tarekzope.i18message has changed its api20:10
tarekin some zope2 it is embed20:10
tarekand it brakes20:10
tarekthe solution is to remove this egg that has been downloaded through z3s.slqalchemy20:11
J1mOr perhaps to create an egg cooresponding to the old version you have.20:11
tarekso yes, a specilized recipe can fix that i guess20:11
J1mThere is something elegant about the specialized recipe that just installs egg-info dirs.20:12
J1mIt will take some setuptools foo.20:12
J1mI don't have that particular foo.20:13
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amarondoes anyone use pydev for zope?20:13
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amaroni cannot use debugger20:13
J1msetuptools is too foofull for me to have all of it.20:14
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CSWookieis there a way to find out what callable will be used to fulfill an adaptation?20:34
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dunnytarek: I ended up creating a recipe that edits the setup file of egg to explicitly remove the dependencies before installing the egg, brute force ugly22:26
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CSWookieI think consumers are going to make my head explode.22:38
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