IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2007-11-09

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suptonanybody have any tips on installing from PYPI zope.interface in mingw+virtualenv on Win32?  Using mingw with easy_install works okay globally, but gcc breaks on optimizations in virtualenv00:41
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suptonugh... because windows doesn't support symlinks, tools like buildout and easy_install will not work within virtualenv when C code needs to be built - works fine on linux00:58
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* hexsprite wonders why formlib action validators don't get their the form data parsed for them...05:31
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ccombHi, when I go to it says 'setup needed' or 'no template available'14:37
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ccombSo, what should I do to help on translation, work on the zope.po file found in ?14:46
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ccombHi philiKON, when I go to it says 'setup needed' or 'no template available'.  So, what should I do to help on translation, work on the zope.po file found in ?14:46
srichterccomb: I do not like launchpad for translations; I would work on th ePO files directly14:47
mujinjunWhy the code example in zope3book didn't work in zope3.3.0, such as the messageboard.14:47
ccombthen I send it to the list or what?14:47
srichtermujinjun: because a lot of things changed between 3.0.0 and 3.3.014:48
philiKONccomb: no, you check it in :)14:49
ccombIf I only had checkin permission14:49
mujinjunand i still can know zope through the zope3book if i wanna use 3.3?14:49
mgedminhm, formlib's form.Fields.__contains__ does not do what I expected it to do14:51
mgedminfair enough, given that it's a cross between a list and a dict14:52
mujinjunsrichter:Is there no need to update the code example to fit for 3.3? I saw the svn trunk has been removed. I think there will be more newcomers like me to meet such problems. Maybe I could update the codes if i master the zope:-D14:56
srichtermujinjun: I just don;t have time14:57
mujinjunIt's ok14:57
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srichtermujinjun: also, if I do another book, I will take a different approach of instructing; my fingers are itching, but my baby boy keeps me from working at it ;-)14:58
ccomb(ok, I'm first doing the job, We'll see later)14:59
projekt01srichter, you know, that doesn't get better with the baby if they get bigger ;-)15:00
mujinjunsrichter:Are you Stephan Richter? the zope3book's author?:P15:00
srichtermujinjun: yes15:00
srichterprojekt01: but then I hopefully can work through the night without paying the penalty the next day15:01
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projekt01srichter, Ah cool, does this mean you will write a book between the baby will sleep the hole night and the next one ;-)15:05
mujinjunI'm lucky to meet the author whose book i was reading a few hours ago. I'm sorry to complain the book's outdate without thinking your own condition. I was gonna to read web component development with zope3 with zope3book, but i'm not sure whether it works.15:07
mujinjunsrither,if you colud understand chinese, maybe you could receive more thanks from me:P15:09
srichtermujinjun: no, the complaint is valid; I also lost the copyright by publishing the book, so while I have permission to keep it up-to-date, I could not sell papercopies again15:10
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ccombThe zope POT file contains a reference to the zope3-dev list. It should be replaced with zope-dev15:46
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natea|bostonsrichter: ping17:09
srichternatea|boston: hey17:10
srichterphiliKON: STOP, STOP, STOP, please!17:10
srichterIt is toptally insane to revert now!17:11
philiKONrelax, your split will still be there for 3.5.x17:11
srichterbut why?17:11
philiKONwhy? because you guys split away code from a *stable* package17:12
philiKONi'm reverting that17:12
srichterI have to break the KGS policies and promises now for the package17:12
srichterall other 3.4 packages have been fixed to the splitup17:12
philiKONi don't understand why this breaks the KGS17:12
philiKONwell, this on ehasn't17:12
srichterbecause the KGS depends on the Zope 3.4.x series of security policy17:12
philiKONand "fixed" just meant BBB was introduced17:12
philiKONwhile the split up shouldn't have been done on the 3.4.x line in the first place17:12
srichterI know, it was a mistake17:13
philiKONso, then the KGS will include the fixed version17:13
srichterI misadviced Roger on that17:13
philiKONwhat's the problem?17:13
philiKONi still don't see why the KGS is affected17:13
srichterwhy don't you just fix the imports to be correct?17:13
philiKONbecause that doesn't help17:14 needs more BBB17:14
srichterhow so?17:14
philiKONand i'm not going to do this17:14
srichterwhy not?17:14
philiKONi'm going to fix it the right way17:14
srichterby violating release policy?17:15
philiKONhow's that violating release policy?17:15
philiKONwhere's that polcy?17:15 needs more BBB because grok apparently breaks with the newest release17:15
philiKONi filed a bug last week already17:15
philiKONroger knows about it17:15
philiKONhas anythign happened?17:15
srichterI know I saw it17:15
srichterso why not jsut do the deferred import and be done17:15
philiKONbecause it's still a feature17:16
philiKONwhich belongs in a feature release17:16
philiKONwhy is it so problematic to revert this?17:16
srichterokay, it was a mistake17:16
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srichterget over it17:16
srichterlet's go on17:16
srichterit won't happen again17:16
philiKONok, i'll take your word for it17:16
philiKONbut why is it so problematic to revert this?17:16
srichterI just spent a lot of time getting the packages to the state they are now17:16
philiKONyes, and that's appreciated17:16
philiKONi still wonder why it's so problematic to revert the split for 3.4.x17:17
srichterbecause 3.4.x series is in the KGS; people rely on that17:17
srichterall other packages (all ftesting.zcml files) have been adjusted to the change17:17
philiKONah, is ee17:17
srichterI fixed all deprecation warnings that I saw17:17
philiKONok, i'll get rid fo the 3.4 branch again17:18
srichterthanks a lot17:18
philiKONsee, that's all i needed to know :)17:18
srichter(ok, I thought that was obvious ;-)17:18
philiKONsrichter: so17:18
philiKONcould you then *please* bring back BBB17:19
philiKONand fix the bug17:19
philiKONthat i reported17:19
srichteryes, I can, but it would be much easier for you to do, because you have the use case17:19
srichterwe have to get away from pointing fingers and act like a community17:19
srichterjust because someone caused a bug does not mean noone else can take care of it17:20
philiKONsorry for "pointing fingers"17:20
projekt01philiKON, I can't fix the bug because I can't reproduce the bug17:20
projekt01I have no setup which is affected by the bug17:20
srichterprojekt01: just write an import test, I guess17:20
philiKONi made projekt01 aware of the bug more than a week ago already, discreetly17:20
philiKONso at some point i'll have to raise the noise level, i suppose17:20
projekt01I think we need now for every bug report a config too17:21
philiKONalso, i spoke out of frustration17:21
philiKONprojekt01: huh?17:21
projekt01philiKON, no problem to me17:21
philiKONso i'm sorry if i've been rough on you, srichter17:21
philiKONbut as i've said, those are facts17:21
philiKONi'm not expecting an apology17:21
philiKONi'm expecting bugfixes ;)17:21
philiKONi'll do it now17:22
philiKONyou know none of this is personal17:22
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projekt01philiKON, thanks a lot17:23
* philiKON replying to email about setup.py17:25
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projekt01philiKON, didn't know that: 'zope.i18nmessageid >= 3.4.2'17:33
philiKONwhat do you mean?17:33
philiKONanyway, it's something that's important17:33
philiKONmy buildout would break17:34
philiKONbecause zope.i18nmessageid 3.4.0 satisfied the dependency17:34
philiKONwhile it clearly didn't17:34
srichterI still do not think it is a good idea, since it is very error-prone17:36
srichterideally versions should be only specified in the index17:36
philiKONfact is, accepting *any* version in this case is just wrong.17:37
srichterbuildout-based version nailing is okay for an application, but just barely17:37
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srichterphiliKON: it's wrong for every case17:37
philiKONi disagree17:37
srichterbut let's say zope.i18nmessageid 3.4.1 was also okay, and you just did not see that17:37
philiKONthen it's a bug17:37
srichteryou potentially really break someones setup17:37
philiKONKGS is just a recommendation. it's not a requirement17:38
projekt01this doesn't let me fix 3.4.1 and use from my own download section17:38
philiKONthere's a difference between requirements and recommendations17:38
philiKONprojekt01: i don't undersatnd17:38
srichterfind-links always extends the index17:38 *requires* a version of zope.i18nmessageid or higher17:38
philiKONi think we're talking about different things here, aren't we17:38
projekt01another option to fix eggs is to release a version and upload it to a nother download location17:39
srichterso yes, you can have your own distribution dir with a new version17:39
philiKONsrichter: not very practical17:39
philiKONan index and a find-links location have different URL semantics17:39
srichtercurrently you have to do this for any code that uses your non-released packages, which might be closed source, for example17:39
srichtersure they have different URL semantics, but that's an implementation detail17:40
philiKONjoe middleclass programmer doesn't want to create his own find-links location17:40
philiKONjust because he wants to upgrade one package17:40
philiKONfrom the KGS17:40
philiKONheck, i don't ;)17:40
srichteranother problem I see with >= 3.4.2 (for example) is that 3.5.0 might not work anymore17:40
philiKONwhy not?17:40
philiKONthen we have a BBB problem17:40
philiKONyou can't foresee the future ;)17:41
srichtersure, so ok, in 3.5.0 we have a deprecation woaning that we remove in 3.717:41
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srichterbut that's what >= does17:41
srichterit does17:41
srichterthe only smart way to do this would be to specify a full bound17:42
philiKONwell, so does just 'zope.i18nmessageid'17:42
srichterI think we need to look much more at linux distributions17:42
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srichterthey have solved the problem17:43
philiKONthey have different use cases, i think17:43
philiKONlike, upgrading  a particular package17:43
srichterI don't think so; at least wrt versions they are in the same boat17:43
philiKONand note that in llinux distributions, packages actually do have dependencies that look like   foo>=5.317:44
srichterexactely, in Linux distros, if you upgrade a single package not in the stable set, you are on your own17:44
philiKONright. that's not what i want :)17:44
srichteractually, they nail versions pretty much17:44
srichterwell, I do not think that we can do much better, at least not without a lot more experience17:45
philiKONwell, versions.cfg loaded from HTTP works now. grok is giving it a good shakeout17:45
philiKONand it actually supports the use cases i can come up with17:45
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projekt01If a buildout based on KGS can ignore versions defined in eggs then we are fine.17:48
philiKONi think >= and/or <= specifiers in are actually important and shouldn't be ignored17:48
philiKONbut if you want to implement such an option, i wouldn't mind ;)  (if it were off by default)17:49
philiKONagain the KGS is a recommendation17:49 notes actual requirements17:49
projekt01no it's not a recommendation, it's the only way to make it possible to manage releases17:49
srichterbut it locks things into ways that not every project might want17:51
projekt01the KGS make it again possible to develop on a set of packages e.g. the zope trunk17:51
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philiKONsrichter: the locks in are the ones that are absoluytely necessary17:52
philiKONthe software won't work with other versions17:52
philiKONthat's what is for17:52
philiKONwith the discussed case, this is the case17:52
philiKONand yes, the KGS is a recommendation. sure, it helps us manage releases etc., but in the end it's just a recommendation. other combinations will (likely) work, but aren't simply tested by us17:53
philiKONthat's the idea of the KGS17:53
projekt01srichter, please, propose the KGS or a dev KGS as a base for our trunk development again.17:53
srichteryeah, I have to do that17:53
projekt01philiKON, without KGS there is no way to see if a zope.* package will break other zope.* packages17:53
srichterok, gotta go17:53
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philiKONprojekt01: sure17:55
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philiKONprojekt01: but that's not the point here17:55
philiKONthe whole point is the self-containedness of eggs17:55
philiKONhaving a KGS is great for managing complex systems composed of eggs17:55
projekt01that's the bad thing17:55
philiKONbut a single egg needs to have proper dependency information17:56
philiKONw/o looking at a KGS17:56
philiKON(apart from the fact that the KGS is just a recommendation)17:56
projekt01eggs can't define the workd around them, this means they should not try to do it.17:56
projekt01because if they do that, they define a part of the world around them17:57
philiKONinstall_requires=['zope.i18nmessageid >=3.4.2'] isn't a definition about the world *around* them17:57
philiKONit's a definition of the world *in it*17:57
philiKONthis package needs >3.4.2 because it wants a feature that was introduced in that version17:57
projekt01no it's a part of the world around them too17:57
philiKONi don't understand how you think that17:58
philiKONit's an intrinsic information of the egg17:58
philiKONit simply doesn't work with 3.4.117:58
philiKONit needs 3.4.217:58
projekt01because it's probably also a part of a third party egg17:58
philiKONhow's that *not* intrinsic information of the egg?17:58
philiKONi don't understand your last remark17:58
projekt01and this 3 rd party egg defines <= 3.4.117:58
projekt01then your are locked17:58
philiKONyup, then you have incompatible code17:59
projekt01so any version lock is bad17:59
philiKONthis isn't version lock17:59
philiKONlet's say wouldn't specify >= 3.4.217:59
philiKONand you could use all those eggs together17:59
philiKONyour code would still break17:59
philiKONbecause actually needs zope.i18nmessageid >= 3.4.2 and your third party egg actually needs <=3.4.1, even though it might not specify it18:00
philiKONso you have a problem *either way*18:00
philiKONso it'd better be explicit in setup.py18:00
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projekt01I still think nailing down versions is a part of the concept above the aggs e.g. KGS18:00
philiKONi'm not nailing18:01
philiKON>= 3.4.2 doesn't nail at all18:01
philiKONit just specifies a lower bound18:01
philiKONit says "i need a new feature"18:01
projekt01the KGS is the only place where we can run overall tests18:01
philiKONwhile that's a true statement, i don't see how it has to do anything with this discussion18:03
projekt01it doesn't matter if a egg doens't work with another egg, this is only important for the KGS18:04
philiKONi don't udnerstand this statement18:04
projekt01if KGS will become a base for our development we don't care about egg version working with other egg versions at the egg level18:05
philiKONyou might not18:05
philiKONi do18:05
philiKONand everybody who leaves the KGS18:05
philiKONfor various reasons18:05
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philiKONyou're basically reviving the old tree conceptually18:06
philiKON(i know, i know, you're a big fan of it)18:06
projekt01I don't understand why yo all try to develop on a per agg base. This won't work18:06
philiKONthe whole point of eggs is independence18:06
philiKONthen we disagree in this view18:06
projekt01philiKON, you bug report is not relevant if you say a per egg dev is OK.18:06
philiKONper egg development doesn't absolve you from introducing incompatibilities18:07
philiKONwe still have rules about that18:07
projekt01yes, and KGS is the concept for doing this18:07
philiKONit's a tool to check, sure18:08
philiKONit doesn't mean we can be sloppy about specifying version requirements18:08
philiKONthere's still a difference between external recommendations (KGS) and intrinsic version dependencies18:08
philiKONbut i'm repeating myself :)18:08
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amaron_i need some advices how to complete specific task21:18
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amaron_for users (prinicipals) in system i need to have list of login/logout times21:19
amaron_and time spent online21:19
amaron_viewable for that user21:19
amaron_and viewable/changable for admin for all users21:20
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amaron_are custom annotations for IPrincipal way to do it?21:21
amaron_or whatever do u suggest?21:21
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philiKONsrichter: hey, how would i get new package versions into the KGS?21:33
srichterupload a new controlled-pacakges.cfg file to the dir21:37
srichterit updates every minute, if there is a change21:37
srichtereasiest would be to use zope.release/branches/3.421:37
srichterbuild it21:37
srichteryou can then say:21:37
srichterI described this all in a recent mail on zope-dev21:38
philiKONi must've missed that21:38
philiKONi will read that21:38
srichteryeah, noone responded to that mail ;-/21:38
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dennis__is the webdav support in z3 currently such that i can support a use case where documents are uploaded? (no real further support needed, but don't know how compatible webfolder is).21:43
dennis__(eeh yeah, so using the windows webfolder approach)21:43
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philiKONrocky: zope.release is quite a neat tool21:57
philiKONerr, i meant srichter ;)21:57
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philiKONsrichter: i get loads of failures though :(22:09
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srichterphiliKON: where?22:23
srichterphiliKON: you have to have several libs installed not to get failures22:23
philiKONyeah, that sucks22:23
srichterphiliKON: I was expecting people having lots of failures22:23
srichterI need to start documenting this22:23
srichterbut it is hard without people reporting things, because it works for me22:24
philiKONi don't understand that22:24
philiKONwhy isn't this thing self-contained?22:24
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philiKONaren't you running this with a clean site-packages?22:24
philiKONsrichter: especially the "DemoLayer" thing that can't be found is weird22:25
philiKONthere's got to be more to this than just missing packages22:26
philiKONeither way, i think this is a great tool22:26
philiKONbut i wish it would pass on my system ;)22:26
srichterzdeamon needs a special setup; it should not even run those tests22:27
philiKONwell, it does...22:27
philiKONsrichter: but now that you mention it, i tried running the zdaemon trunk tests and they fail for me too22:30
philiKONso ignoring those, i still get enough other failures22:30
srichterphiliKON: mmh, how do you run the tests22:31
srichterphiliKON: one problem is from not having reportlab installed, which does not have a proper egg, so I can't have it as a dep22:31
philiKONyeah, i installed PIL and reportlab now22:32
philiKONi hope taht's all22:32
philiKONi realize they're not eggs, so that's ok22:32
philiKONit's not ideal, but i can live with that22:32
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srichterphiliKON: sorry, I am back22:43
srichterI tried to get a VPN running crashing the entire network connection in the process22:43
srichtercan you repeat the last lines?22:43
srichterphiliKON: ^^^22:43
srichterI was saying that I have a plan for packages that do not have proper eggs22:44
philiKONmy last line was"22:44
philiKONit's not ideal, but i can live with that22:44
philiKONi didn't say anything after that22:44
srichterbasically we are going to create proper eggs, put them on (probably /zope3.4) and the controlled-packages.cfg references that location directly22:45
philiKONsounds ok22:45
philiKONanyway, with the ftests i'm just getting a zeo failure now22:45
philiKONstill running the non-ftests22:45
philiKONgetting a failure on some pdf not found22:45
philiKONbut i'm going to ignore those z3c.* failures for now ;(22:46
philiKONerr, ;)22:46
philiKONsrichter: i'm still getting22:49
philiKONAttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'DemoLayer'22:49
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srichterphiliKON: mmh, a missing dependnecy?22:50
srichteryou need to install
philiKONshoudln't it have done it automatically?22:51
srichteryeah, it should22:51
philiKONsounds like a bug in the dependencies22:51
srichterso you are testing the KGS?22:51
philiKONand why does it work for you?22:51
philiKONwell, i'm following your instructions in the email22:51
philiKONhaven't modified anything yet22:51
srichterthen it should work22:51
srichterbecause is part of the KGS and is installed, even if the dep is missing22:52
philiKONlemme check22:52
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philiKONsrichter: i have22:55
philiKON  '/Users/philipp/buildout-eggs/',22:55
philiKONin bin/test22:55
srichterok, that should be fine22:55
srichterit needs just anything22:55
srichteroh, you see this at the end of the output right?22:55
srichterbut it should not cause any failures22:55
philiKONno, but it's still weird22:56
srichterI have not figured this one out22:56
philiKONanyway:  Ran 10954 tests with 3 failures and 114 errors in 6 minutes 42.754 seconds.22:56
srichterwhen I run the tests manually, it all works22:56
srichter114 errors?22:56
srichterI wonder where they come from22:56
srichterI am pretty sure that some packages are not properly setup and torn down22:56
philiKONwell, the z3c.rml test are looking for pdf files22:57
philiKONthat apparently aren't in the egg22:57
philiKONor something22:57
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srichterphiliKON: darn, they should be22:57
srichterI will investigate this problem22:58
philiKONcool, thanks22:58
philiKONso, can i update the KGS to the new releases that i made today?22:58
srichter(I cannot do it now, but I will try tonight)22:58
philiKONyeah, no rush22:58
srichterthey are only bug-fix releases rright?22:58
srichteryeah, then that's fine22:59
philiKONzope.formlib has a feature thing, bu ti haven't even made that release yet22:59
philiKONchange it both on the trunk and 3.4 branch?22:59
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philiKONsrichter: i wonder about the multiple versions for a package23:01
philiKONi mean, i've released a bugfix release now23:01
srichterI need to setup a devel KGS too23:01
philiKONshould we still "support" the previous releases in the KGS?23:01
srichterJim said this is needed for people's buildouts not to break23:02
philiKONah, right, because you fill the locked down index with it23:02
philiKONsigh, yet another reason why the locked down index is limiting23:02
philiKON i think it makes decisions on the wrong end23:02
srichterwhy wrong place?23:03
philiKONhmm, i wonder what J1m meant about breaking buildouts23:03
philiKONi mean, a KGS shouldn't change right?23:03
philiKONmeaning, a *released* KGS shoudln't change23:04
srichter(I think all we need to be able to do is to layer indices like Chris suggested)23:04
J1mphiliKON, huh?23:04
philiKONi don't see how those layered indices solve anything23:04
philiKONi mean, they would complicate things terribly23:04
philiKONJ1m: let's say we release the Zope3.4.0 KGS23:04
srichterno, they would allow you to build a grok KGS on top of the Zope 3.4 KGS23:04
srichterthere is no Zope 3.4.0 KGS, only a Zope 3.4 KGS23:05
philiKONsrichter: right. and then I want to upgrade from 3.4.1 to 3.5.0 and i have to create yet another index just for that one package and cascade it with the other 2?23:05
philiKONboy that sounds complicated23:05
srichterthe beautiful thing about the KGS is that it fixes bugs when you update23:05
philiKONsrichter: umm... ok. so the KGS is a moving target?!?23:05
srichterphiliKON: no, it is not moving feature wise23:06
srichterit just automatically publishes bug releases23:06
srichterI am totally open to create specific versions.cfg files23:06
srichterlike versions-3.4.0.cfg for example23:07
philiKONthe moving target can introduce ambiguities, though23:07
philiKONlet's say package A gets a bugfix 1.0.123:07
philiKONand package B needs to depend on that bugfixed behaviour23:07
philiKONso it gets B 1.0.123:08
philiKONaccording to your rules A 1.0.0 and B 1.0.0 are still in the KGS23:08
philiKONso A1.0.0 and B 1.0.1 would comprise a valid set23:08
srichterthey are available23:08
philiKONaccording  to the KGS23:08
philiKONhmm. well i suppose B's would state A>=1.0.123:08
srichterbut if you say "update" it will always get A 101 and B10123:08
srichterno, the behavior will just work23:08
srichterbecause when you update you get the latest of everything23:09
philiKONunless you use bin/buildout -N :)23:09
philiKONlike everybody does nowadays23:09
philiKONok, i'll have to think about this some more23:09
philiKONthanks for assistance with zope.release23:09
philiKONi'm closing for the night23:09
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srichterif you use -N the packages don;t get updates and you are fine ;-)23:10
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J1mphiliKON, if you want to upgrade to a new feature release of a package from the KGS, then you'll be effectively leaving the KGS.23:12
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J1mYou'll be able to do that in various ways, but it will mean that you can no longer rely on the KGS.23:12
philiKONwell, that's very helpful. either you take all 100%, but if you just want 99%, you'll have to do everything by yourself23:12
philiKONthat sucks23:12
J1mYour tude atm leaves alot to be desired.23:12
J1mI'm sorry I responded.23:13
philiKONit's late23:13
philiKONdidn't mean it23:13
philiKONi should go out :)23:13
J1mYeah, and I'm trying to get other work done.23:13
J1mThink of this as being like a linux diistro.23:13
J1mMost people just want something that works.23:13
J1mThey want bug fixes.23:13
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philiKONyeah, and i see how the locked down index solves that beautifully23:14
J1mThey don't want new features until they do a distro upgrade.23:14
J1mNow, some advanced users might want to be clever.23:14
philiKONright. but they'll also want to lock down the set of packages they maintain themselves, fo rinstance. i just don't see how they want to maintain their own index. or shouldn't they?23:14
J1mThey might install some packages by hand or add additional respositories to their search list.23:15
J1mThey know that they are off the beaten path.23:15
philiKONright, i realize that23:15
J1mYou don't need your own index to use versions not in the KGS.23:15
philiKONyou don't? how would buildout find them?23:16
J1mYOu can add packages by hand in a number of ways.23:16
philiKONfind-links has different semantics, right?23:16
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J1mThe easiest way is to stick them somewhete and add that location to your find links.23:16
philiKONhmmm. right. so i'll have to maintain that "somewhere"23:16
J1mwell, setuptools lets you have an index and as many find links as you want.23:16
J1mwell, sure.23:17
philiKONhm.. i'll have to thinka bout this23:17
philiKONi should go out now anyway, and not keep you from doing your work and aggrevatin people ;)23:17
J1mJust like unix package management systems provide lots of ways to do things in a custom way, so does buildout.23:17
philiKONright right, i'd just like it to be easy and straight-forward23:18
J1mI'm not agrevating anyone (that I know of). :)23:18
philiKONheh, that came out wrong ;)23:18
J1mI'd like a pony. :)23:18
philiKONi'll se what i can do... ;)23:18
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