| *** rcrafton has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** alga has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** b52laptop has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** salfield has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** jsadjohnson has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** niemeyer has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** ccomb has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** timte has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** lmiller has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** philiKON_ has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** whit has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** bigkevmcd has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** instantf1o has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** SteveA has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** _Basti__ has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** dokai has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** nouri has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** dobee has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** J1m has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** run|home has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** tomus has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** Theuni has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** WebMaven has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** srichter has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** Pan]_ has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** romanofski has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** dennis__ has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** irc.freenode.net sets mode: +o srichter | 00:00 | |
| *** whit has quit IRC | 00:00 | |
| *** jhauser has quit IRC | 00:00 | |
| *** whit has joined #zope3-dev | 00:00 | |
| *** amaron has quit IRC | 00:06 | |
| *** norro has quit IRC | 00:09 | |
| *** rcrafton has quit IRC | 00:13 | |
| *** edgordon has joined #zope3-dev | 00:13 | |
| philiKON_ | srichter: why do we still need a package for the "zope3" kgs? | 00:14 |
|---|---|---|
| philiKON_ | i don't understand the purpose of zope.kgs vs. zope.release | 00:14 |
| philiKON_ | i thought zope.release was the software | 00:14 |
| philiKON_ | and all you need to define a KGS is a controlled-packages.cfg | 00:15 |
| philiKON_ | and a buildout.cfg | 00:15 |
| srichter | it also maintains the controlled-packages.cfg | 00:15 |
| philiKON_ | that installs the zope.release eggs | 00:15 |
| philiKON_ | why don't we split the controlled-packages.cfg away from zope.release? | 00:15 |
| philiKON_ | zope.release should be the software | 00:15 |
| philiKON_ | i don't think we need a *package* for controlled-packages.cfg | 00:15 |
| srichter | well, that's what I am doing; just the other way around | 00:15 |
| philiKON_ | we just need a location in svn | 00:16 |
| philiKON_ | what you're doing sounds more complicated :) | 00:16 |
| srichter | I take pretty much all the non-Zope specific software away from zope.release | 00:16 |
| philiKON_ | anything that starts with 'zope.' sounds like a package to me | 00:16 |
| srichter | zope.release will still contain the Zoe Tree fixing script though | 00:16 |
| philiKON_ | what's zope specific in zope.release? | 00:16 |
| philiKON_ | hmmm, i see | 00:16 |
| philiKON_ | ok | 00:16 |
| srichter | maybe it won';t be a package; I dunno yet; I am just playing a little bit; I just had to check in so I won't loose the history | 00:17 |
| philiKON_ | ok | 00:17 |
| * philiKON_ goes back to work :) | 00:17 | |
| *** Pan] has joined #zope3-dev | 00:34 | |
| mcdonc | srichter: fwiw, we're currently working on a project that can generate a kgs from a working set here:http://repoze.org/viewcvs/compoze/trunk/ | 00:44 |
| philiKON_ | mcdonc: btw, when are you guys going to use reStructuredText, like the rest of the world? :) | 00:46 |
| mcdonc | srichter: the intent is to turn the packages installed in the sandbox that a developer uses (and tests with) into a KGS | 00:46 |
| mcdonc | philiKON_: when hell freezes over | 00:46 |
| * philiKON_ feels like seeing zope 2.2 docs when he sees that indented text ;) | 00:46 | |
| philiKON_ | hahaha | 00:46 |
| mcdonc | philiKON_: i think in stx, unfortunately | 00:46 |
| * philiKON_ should write an stx2rest converter | 00:47 | |
| mcdonc | its ironic that python programmers are bothered by indentation | 00:47 |
| philiKON_ | it's *really* hard to restructure stx | 00:47 |
| mcdonc | not when you use a real editor ;-) | 00:47 |
| philiKON_ | or you don't know how to use it ;) | 00:47 |
| * philiKON_ has to go back to work | 00:47 | |
| mcdonc | philiKON_: yeh stop slacking off, ya slacker ;-) | 00:47 |
| *** stub has quit IRC | 00:48 | |
| Pan] | =] | 00:50 |
| *** dobee has quit IRC | 00:50 | |
| *** Pan]_ has quit IRC | 00:51 | |
| *** norro_ has quit IRC | 00:52 | |
| *** lucielejard has quit IRC | 01:03 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has quit IRC | 01:07 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has joined #zope3-dev | 01:07 | |
| *** benji has quit IRC | 01:07 | |
| spython | hi, i have a custom widget with a template file which uses some 3rd party javascript magic to get the widget's input | 01:09 |
| spython | the problem is that the value of this field is put in the name "foo", but the widget expects something in the name "form.foo" | 01:09 |
| spython | i don't have control over this javascript so i cannot rename it to use "form.foo".. | 01:10 |
| philiKON_ | you might be able to set the prefix of the widgets to '' | 01:11 |
| spython | can i force my widget not to use the "form" prefix in the name? | 01:11 |
| spython | oh | 01:11 |
| spython | yeah, I'll try that but i wasn't sure that was a good way to do | 01:12 |
| *** regebro has left #zope3-dev | 01:14 | |
| Pan] | hehe. zope is funny in this way... i think that your idea is good, and few hours later, during solving some other problem and searching zope codes, you discover that there is much better way to do it ;] | 01:14 |
| Pan] | i mean "i think that my idea is good " | 01:15 |
| Pan] | ofcourse it is zope plus, that it has a lot of ready-to-use solutions. minus is that there is often no "designing practices" documented. | 01:17 |
| spython | hmm, form_fields['foo'].prefix = 'blah' becomes 'form.blah.foo' :( | 01:21 |
| spython | cannot touch the "form" prefix | 01:21 |
| philiKON_ | no, i think you can set the prefix of the overall form | 01:22 |
| philiKON_ | but isn't the javascript flexible enough so you can pass in the name of the form element? | 01:22 |
| philiKON_ | sounds like some bad js... | 01:23 |
| spython | hehe, it's the recaptcha javascript | 01:23 |
| spython | yes i will try setting the overall form prefix.. | 01:24 |
| *** lmiller has quit IRC | 01:24 | |
| *** natea|boston has joined #zope3-dev | 01:26 | |
| *** rmarianski has quit IRC | 01:26 | |
| spython | yep it's working, cheers philip | 01:28 |
| philiKON_ | :) | 01:28 |
| *** pcardune has joined #zope3-dev | 01:30 | |
| *** ccomb has left #zope3-dev | 01:30 | |
| *** dunny has joined #zope3-dev | 01:31 | |
| *** J1m has quit IRC | 01:32 | |
| *** RaFromBRC is now known as RaFromBRC|lunch | 01:35 | |
| *** greenman has joined #zope3-dev | 01:38 | |
| *** philiKON has joined #zope3-dev | 01:38 | |
| *** quodt has quit IRC | 01:42 | |
| *** b52laptop has quit IRC | 01:45 | |
| *** run|home has quit IRC | 01:48 | |
| *** philiKON_ has quit IRC | 01:54 | |
| *** pcardune has quit IRC | 01:57 | |
| *** TresEquis has quit IRC | 01:57 | |
| *** jsadjohnson has quit IRC | 02:01 | |
| *** BjornT has quit IRC | 02:02 | |
| *** pbugni has quit IRC | 02:09 | |
| *** spython has quit IRC | 02:10 | |
| *** RaFromBRC|lunch has quit IRC | 02:10 | |
| *** pcardune has joined #zope3-dev | 02:29 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has joined #zope3-dev | 02:32 | |
| *** mrevoir has joined #zope3-dev | 02:33 | |
| *** alecm_ has joined #zope3-dev | 02:39 | |
| *** hazmat has joined #zope3-dev | 03:05 | |
| *** salfield has quit IRC | 03:06 | |
| *** alecm has quit IRC | 03:09 | |
| *** mrevoir has quit IRC | 03:09 | |
| *** natea|boston has quit IRC | 03:09 | |
| *** natea|boston has joined #zope3-dev | 03:09 | |
| *** greenman has quit IRC | 03:11 | |
| *** huajie has joined #zope3-dev | 03:20 | |
| *** xenru has joined #zope3-dev | 03:25 | |
| *** tfws has joined #zope3-dev | 03:33 | |
| *** tfws is now known as darryl | 03:36 | |
| *** darryl is now known as darrylcousins | 03:36 | |
| *** Ariel_Calzada has joined #zope3-dev | 03:53 | |
| *** philiKON has quit IRC | 04:05 | |
| *** Ariel_Calzada has quit IRC | 04:05 | |
| *** whit has quit IRC | 04:11 | |
| *** projekt01 has joined #zope3-dev | 04:25 | |
| *** Pan]_ has joined #zope3-dev | 04:38 | |
| *** lucielejard has joined #zope3-dev | 04:38 | |
| *** pcardune has quit IRC | 04:42 | |
| *** alecm_ has quit IRC | 04:43 | |
| *** hazmat has quit IRC | 04:44 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has quit IRC | 04:46 | |
| *** dunny has quit IRC | 04:50 | |
| *** Pan] has quit IRC | 04:52 | |
| *** alga has quit IRC | 05:05 | |
| *** niemeyer has quit IRC | 05:09 | |
| *** dunny has joined #zope3-dev | 05:12 | |
| *** stub has joined #zope3-dev | 05:15 | |
| *** natea_ has joined #zope3-dev | 05:29 | |
| *** dunny has quit IRC | 05:35 | |
| *** natea|boston has quit IRC | 05:44 | |
| *** lucielejard has quit IRC | 05:47 | |
| *** dunny has joined #zope3-dev | 05:57 | |
| *** edgordon has quit IRC | 05:59 | |
| *** natea_ is now known as natea | 06:08 | |
| *** rcrafton has joined #zope3-dev | 06:11 | |
| *** pcardune has joined #zope3-dev | 06:21 | |
| *** cursor has joined #zope3-dev | 06:24 | |
| *** dunny has quit IRC | 06:25 | |
| *** lmiller has joined #zope3-dev | 06:49 | |
| lmiller | Hi | 06:49 |
| lmiller | I have a class that I have attached IAttributeAnnotatable to (via implements in the zcml), now I get a ForbiddenAttribute __annotations__ error. There's no adapter to set as trusted, as IAttributeAnnotable is added directly to the class. Any suggestions? | 06:50 |
| pcardune | lmiller: what is the particular line of code for which you get the error? Something like IAnnotation(objectThatImplimentsAttributeAnnotatable)? | 06:57 |
| *** baijum has joined #zope3-dev | 06:57 | |
| lmiller | pcardune: I think the problem was I WAS using an adapter, I set it to trusted and it went on to my new error | 06:57 |
| lmiller | I find in zope that the errors can fly around a bit (all over the code) | 06:57 |
| pcardune | yep. security errors can be kind of tricky at times | 06:58 |
| *** cursor has quit IRC | 07:04 | |
| *** natea has quit IRC | 07:19 | |
| *** natea|boston has joined #zope3-dev | 07:19 | |
| *** stub has quit IRC | 07:31 | |
| *** projekt01 has quit IRC | 08:13 | |
| lmiller | thanks for your help | 08:23 |
| *** lmiller has quit IRC | 08:23 | |
| *** afd_ has joined #zope3-dev | 08:25 | |
| *** jodok has quit IRC | 08:28 | |
| *** darrylcousins has quit IRC | 08:31 | |
| *** hdima has joined #zope3-dev | 08:33 | |
| *** dobee has joined #zope3-dev | 08:38 | |
| *** __mac__ has joined #zope3-dev | 08:57 | |
| *** afd_ has quit IRC | 09:07 | |
| *** sorin has joined #zope3-dev | 09:10 | |
| *** sorin is now known as sorindregan | 09:10 | |
| *** Jell-O-Fishi has quit IRC | 09:11 | |
| *** reco has joined #zope3-dev | 09:12 | |
| *** jodok has joined #zope3-dev | 09:21 | |
| *** markusleist has joined #zope3-dev | 09:22 | |
| *** philiKON has joined #zope3-dev | 09:31 | |
| *** schwendinger has joined #zope3-dev | 09:48 | |
| *** schwendinger has quit IRC | 09:49 | |
| *** jfroche has joined #zope3-dev | 09:50 | |
| *** malthe has joined #zope3-dev | 09:58 | |
| *** philiKON has quit IRC | 09:58 | |
| *** schwendinger has joined #zope3-dev | 10:06 | |
| *** gimni has joined #zope3-dev | 10:11 | |
| *** yvl has joined #zope3-dev | 10:11 | |
| *** greenman has joined #zope3-dev | 10:19 | |
| *** afd_ has joined #zope3-dev | 10:22 | |
| *** quodt has joined #zope3-dev | 10:30 | |
| * baijum just got his GSoC T-Shirt :) | 10:36 | |
| *** gstratton has joined #zope3-dev | 10:38 | |
| *** cursor has joined #zope3-dev | 10:44 | |
| *** agroszer has joined #zope3-dev | 10:52 | |
| *** harobed has joined #zope3-dev | 11:06 | |
| *** stub has joined #zope3-dev | 11:08 | |
| *** jodok has quit IRC | 11:28 | |
| *** norro has joined #zope3-dev | 11:34 | |
| *** b52laptop has joined #zope3-dev | 11:45 | |
| *** MJ has joined #zope3-dev | 11:47 | |
| *** pelle__ has joined #zope3-dev | 11:51 | |
| *** BjornT has joined #zope3-dev | 11:53 | |
| *** MJ is now known as MJ|out | 11:55 | |
| *** philiKON has joined #zope3-dev | 12:02 | |
| *** thruflo has joined #zope3-dev | 12:04 | |
| *** jodok has joined #zope3-dev | 12:09 | |
| *** greenman has quit IRC | 12:40 | |
| *** MJ|out has quit IRC | 12:43 | |
| *** MJ has joined #zope3-dev | 12:44 | |
| *** ktwilight has joined #zope3-dev | 12:54 | |
| *** ktwilight_ has quit IRC | 12:55 | |
| *** MJ is now known as MJ|lunch | 13:05 | |
| *** jsadjohnson has joined #zope3-dev | 13:09 | |
| *** toutpt has joined #zope3-dev | 13:13 | |
| *** pelle__ has quit IRC | 13:13 | |
| *** mkerrin has joined #zope3-dev | 13:16 | |
| *** ignas has joined #zope3-dev | 13:16 | |
| *** mgedmin has joined #zope3-dev | 13:24 | |
| *** ghendi has joined #zope3-dev | 13:26 | |
| *** thruflo has quit IRC | 13:28 | |
| *** thruflo has joined #zope3-dev | 13:29 | |
| *** cursor_ has joined #zope3-dev | 13:32 | |
| *** pelle__ has joined #zope3-dev | 13:33 | |
| *** cursor has quit IRC | 13:39 | |
| *** instantf1o is now known as instantfoo | 13:55 | |
| instantfoo | foo! | 13:55 |
| * mgedmin blinks | 14:00 | |
| *** MJ|lunch is now known as MJ | 14:00 | |
| *** jinty has joined #zope3-dev | 14:05 | |
| *** niemeyer has joined #zope3-dev | 14:11 | |
| *** afd_ has quit IRC | 14:30 | |
| *** pcardune has quit IRC | 14:30 | |
| *** markusleist has quit IRC | 14:31 | |
| *** duckinator has joined #zope3-dev | 14:33 | |
| *** baijum has quit IRC | 14:44 | |
| *** regebro has joined #zope3-dev | 15:04 | |
| *** __mac__ has quit IRC | 15:07 | |
| *** toutpt has quit IRC | 15:10 | |
| *** toutpt has joined #zope3-dev | 15:11 | |
| *** benji has joined #zope3-dev | 15:11 | |
| *** toutpt has quit IRC | 15:11 | |
| *** MJ has quit IRC | 15:23 | |
| *** projekt01 has joined #zope3-dev | 15:28 | |
| *** thruflo_ has joined #zope3-dev | 15:29 | |
| *** J1m has joined #zope3-dev | 15:30 | |
| *** thruflo has quit IRC | 15:44 | |
| *** Pan]_ has quit IRC | 15:47 | |
| *** pyqwer has joined #zope3-dev | 15:54 | |
| *** bigkevmcd has left #zope3-dev | 16:07 | |
| *** hexsprite has joined #zope3-dev | 16:12 | |
| *** jodok has quit IRC | 16:12 | |
| *** jodok has joined #zope3-dev | 16:13 | |
| *** jodok has joined #zope3-dev | 16:15 | |
| *** dobee has quit IRC | 16:15 | |
| *** jsadjohnson has quit IRC | 16:17 | |
| *** run|home has joined #zope3-dev | 16:26 | |
| *** lucielejard has joined #zope3-dev | 16:29 | |
| *** yvl has quit IRC | 16:39 | |
| *** jinty has quit IRC | 16:40 | |
| *** jinty has joined #zope3-dev | 16:40 | |
| *** afd_ has joined #zope3-dev | 16:41 | |
| *** toutpt has joined #zope3-dev | 16:53 | |
| *** whit has joined #zope3-dev | 17:09 | |
| *** whit has quit IRC | 17:10 | |
| *** dobee has joined #zope3-dev | 17:11 | |
| *** run|home has quit IRC | 17:13 | |
| *** whit has joined #zope3-dev | 17:14 | |
| *** rmarianski has joined #zope3-dev | 17:15 | |
| *** schwendinger has quit IRC | 17:16 | |
| *** dobee has quit IRC | 17:18 | |
| *** hdima has quit IRC | 17:20 | |
| *** ghendi has quit IRC | 17:20 | |
| *** sorindregan has quit IRC | 17:21 | |
| *** cursor has joined #zope3-dev | 17:25 | |
| *** baijum has joined #zope3-dev | 17:27 | |
| *** cursor_ has quit IRC | 17:30 | |
| *** thruflo_ has quit IRC | 17:37 | |
| *** thruflo has joined #zope3-dev | 17:37 | |
| *** thruflo has joined #zope3-dev | 17:37 | |
| *** natea_ has joined #zope3-dev | 17:39 | |
| *** huajie has quit IRC | 17:54 | |
| *** natea|boston has quit IRC | 17:55 | |
| *** jsadjohnson has joined #zope3-dev | 17:58 | |
| *** lucielejard_ has joined #zope3-dev | 18:00 | |
| *** quodt_ has joined #zope3-dev | 18:01 | |
| *** lucielejard has quit IRC | 18:07 | |
| *** jodok has quit IRC | 18:08 | |
| *** quodt has quit IRC | 18:10 | |
| *** baijum has quit IRC | 18:12 | |
| *** pcardune has joined #zope3-dev | 18:20 | |
| *** cursor has quit IRC | 18:20 | |
| *** natea_ is now known as natea | 18:21 | |
| *** lucielejard_ is now known as lucielejard | 18:21 | |
| srichter | J1m: any chance we will see a new ZODB release soon? | 18:34 |
| srichter | J1m: well, good morning first of all :-) | 18:34 |
| *** harobed has quit IRC | 18:35 | |
| J1m | I am swamped, so I have almost no idea. | 18:35 |
| srichter | ok | 18:35 |
| J1m | I know Theuni has been trying to resolve critical bugs. | 18:35 |
| srichter | yeah, he fixed the finel new critical bug | 18:36 |
| srichter | plus some more | 18:36 |
| J1m | I haven't had time to review them, so I hope they're good. :) | 18:36 |
| srichter | he had a question about the solution on one of them | 18:36 |
| J1m | Hm, I guess I missed that. | 18:37 |
| srichter | no, you responded I just saw | 18:38 |
| srichter | https://bugs.launchpad.net/zodb/+bug/98275 | 18:38 |
| mcdonc | before there is a new ZODB release, we should fix this too.. http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zodb-dev/2007-November/011314.html | 18:38 |
| J1m | mcdonc, we're talking about 3.8, which shouldn't be affected by that. | 18:39 |
| mcdonc | J1m: ok | 18:39 |
| srichter | mcdonc: but I thought that was on the trunk | 18:39 |
| srichter | mcdonc: ZODB 3.8 has alreadya tag as far as I know | 18:39 |
| mcdonc | sorry, i didnt know you were talking about 3.8 (you have esp with each other ;-) ) | 18:40 |
| srichter | mcdonc: I just had annoyed jim enough about it before | 18:40 |
| *** pcardune has quit IRC | 18:40 | |
| srichter | J1m: so 98275 is the last remaining critical bug altogether | 18:41 |
| srichter | mcdonc: do you want power? Do you want access to all Zope packages on PyPI that I have access to? :-) | 18:44 |
| mcdonc | srichter: no, but i'll take it ;-) | 18:44 |
| * J1m resists pointing out on distutils-sig how absolutely self destructive it is to use system Pythons. | 18:47 | |
| * J1m feels better for venting somewhere. :) | 18:47 | |
| ignas | J1m: please link | 18:47 |
| ignas | oh, pointing out | 18:47 |
| ignas | i thought there was a post in which someone was explaining why it can be disastrous and how | 18:48 |
| mgedmin | there were multiple mailing list threads, well, at least one | 18:48 |
| J1m | http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2007-November/008469.html | 18:48 |
| srichter | J1m: poor benji, got all the heat | 18:48 |
| ignas | thanks | 18:48 |
| J1m | benji likes heat. Otherwise, he gets chilly. | 18:49 |
| *** rmarianski has quit IRC | 18:49 | |
| * benji shivers, due to lack of heat. | 18:49 | |
| * mcdonc shakes his head at people who are amazed by the default python leopard install ("it has twisted in it already!") | 18:50 | |
| *** gstratton_ has joined #zope3-dev | 18:50 | |
| *** pelle__ has quit IRC | 18:51 | |
| *** TresEquis has joined #zope3-dev | 18:52 | |
| ignas | J1m: hmm, not a very good example, I had the same problem when *compiling* my own python, because i didn't install libzlib-dev first | 18:54 |
| *** gstratton__ has joined #zope3-dev | 18:59 | |
| srichter | mcdonc: all done; do you feel th force? :-0 | 18:59 |
| mcdonc | srichter: if by "do you feel the force" you mean "am i crying", then yes ;-) | 18:59 |
| srichter | LOL | 18:59 |
| ignas | srichter: can i have some too, so i could release "bugfixes" that i am too lazy to write an email about to zope-dev ;) | 19:00 |
| * srichter wants PyPI groups really bad | 19:00 | |
| *** projekt01 has quit IRC | 19:00 | |
| *** nathany has joined #zope3-dev | 19:01 | |
| srichter | ignas: I guess you know the drill? update CHANGES.txt, create release tag, bump version, etc? | 19:01 |
| ignas | not really, though i had some practice with some schooltool eggs following steps described by philiKON in some text file about zope release process | 19:02 |
| ignas | maybe without the changelog part | 19:03 |
| srichter | ok | 19:03 |
| srichter | username on PyPI? | 19:03 |
| ignas | let me check | 19:03 |
| srichter | (I think it is good if at least one person of each major project or company has access to those packages | 19:03 |
| *** alecm has joined #zope3-dev | 19:03 | |
| ignas | "ignas" seems to be the username | 19:04 |
| srichter | it's rolling now | 19:04 |
| *** gstratton has quit IRC | 19:05 | |
| *** mcdonc has quit IRC | 19:10 | |
| srichter | ignas: you also got the force, young ignas | 19:12 |
| ignas | srichter: thanks | 19:12 |
| *** philiKON has quit IRC | 19:12 | |
| ignas | oooh, my list of packages is LONG | 19:12 |
| J1m | ignas, I in this example, the user had zlib installed. I agree though that, in this case, the underlying issue is that the zlib module should no-longer be considered optional in Python. | 19:13 |
| *** natea has quit IRC | 19:13 | |
| srichter | J1m: I think this will cause a lot of resistence, because setuptools in itself is not a Python pacakge | 19:14 |
| J1m | I don't think so. Guido has stated that he wants setuptools in the standard lib. And zip import is a fairly core feature of Python. | 19:15 |
| * mgedmin hopes setuptools will eventually become sane, stable and part of stdlib | 19:15 | |
| *** gstratton_ has quit IRC | 19:16 | |
| Theuni | hmm | 19:16 |
| Theuni | J1m: any change to look at the zodb bug? I'll be gone for two weeks starting tomorrow, just to let you know ... | 19:16 |
| Theuni | on another topic: does anybody know why the publisher strips away trailing whitespace from the PATH_INFO? | 19:16 |
| Theuni | there is no test case that verifies that it does this and IMHO this is wrong. | 19:17 |
| srichter | Theuni: I would try to see what happens if it does not do this by running all the tests | 19:18 |
| Theuni | hm | 19:19 |
| Theuni | I haven't played with your tools yet, I guess running the tests from the old tree would be sufficient. | 19:19 |
| Theuni | s/any change/any chance/ | 19:19 |
| srichter | yeah, that should be sufficient | 19:20 |
| Theuni | i mean. even if it breaks something, that other thing would be wrong as well ;) | 19:20 |
| srichter | testing against the KGS is trivial though; just downlaod http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/buildout.cfg | 19:20 |
| Theuni | what currently happens is that urls like /foo%20 are turned into /foo | 19:21 |
| srichter | ahh, that does sounds like a mistake | 19:21 |
| Theuni | indeed | 19:21 |
| Theuni | and it's been there for a *looooong* time | 19:21 |
| srichter | I guess people just do not have this use case | 19:22 |
| Theuni | i just had | 19:22 |
| Theuni | because a customer entered something where he accidentally a space at the end of something that was being used as a name | 19:22 |
| Theuni | (insert your favorite missing verb) | 19:23 |
| srichter | oops | 19:23 |
| Theuni | it might be a bad idea to allow him doing that anyway, OTOH the publisher is broken in that regard | 19:24 |
| *** philiKON has joined #zope3-dev | 19:29 | |
| *** mcdonc has joined #zope3-dev | 19:31 | |
| ignas | srichter: if i want to make a backwards incompatible change - should i just bump the version up like 3.4->3.5 , make a branch for 3.5 that only has dev releases or something else? | 19:37 |
| ignas | i made a mistake when doing the signature of "startServer" function in zope.testing.server | 19:37 |
| ignas | and would like to change it | 19:37 |
| philiKON | can't you just create a new function with the improved signature? | 19:38 |
| ignas | startImprovedServer ;) | 19:38 |
| ignas | though i guess startHttpServer will be good enough | 19:38 |
| ignas | with a deprecation waring in the old function | 19:39 |
| ignas | warning | 19:39 |
| *** quodt_ has quit IRC | 19:41 | |
| TresEquis | Theuni: can we nag you as a zagy proxy? | 19:42 |
| TresEquis | Oh, I see that zagy is here too | 19:42 |
| Theuni | you can nag zagy as a proxy for me =) | 19:42 |
| Theuni | i'm almost gone to my vavation :) | 19:42 |
| Theuni | vacation indeed | 19:42 |
| Theuni | zagy just left heading home, i'm not sure he'll be online in the next hours | 19:42 |
| TresEquis | we need to get non-borked eggs released for the .dev-r### eggs currently on the cheeseshop | 19:42 |
| Theuni | what's up? | 19:42 |
| TresEquis | I figure he knows what was the motivation for releasing them | 19:43 |
| Theuni | wanna do it yourself? | 19:43 |
| Theuni | ah ok | 19:43 |
| Theuni | hmm | 19:43 |
| TresEquis | because he released most of them ;) | 19:43 |
| Theuni | i'd write him a mail | 19:44 |
| Theuni | i'm currently wrapping up my stuff and really don't wanna open up anything new :) | 19:44 |
| TresEquis | k | 19:44 |
| timte | I have problems using zope3 widgets in zope2, looks like it's because zope2 uses content-type and zope3 uses Content-Type | 19:45 |
| TresEquis | is it zagy@gocept.net? | 19:48 |
| TresEquis | cz@? | 19:49 |
| *** zagy has quit IRC | 19:49 | |
| Theuni | cz@gocept.com | 19:49 |
| TresEquis | "cubic zirconium" -) | 19:49 |
| mcdonc | Theuni: alternately we could delete the zope.app.publisher 3.5.0a2 release, if the g'damn cheeseshop let us. | 19:49 |
| TresEquis | somebody would whine, but maybe it would be the "right" people | 19:50 |
| Theuni | well, the cheeseshop does let you deleete | 19:50 |
| TresEquis | hmm, we can't even see that release on the non-simple page | 19:50 |
| Theuni | that's because it's hidden | 19:50 |
| Theuni | are you logged in? | 19:51 |
| mcdonc | yeah | 19:51 |
| srichter | TresEquis: Theuni: well, he added layer support for XMLRPC | 19:52 |
| Theuni | mcdonc: http://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=pkg_edit&name=zope.app.publisher | 19:52 |
| Theuni | that page, at the end lists all versions for me | 19:52 |
| Theuni | including a 'remove' button | 19:52 |
| TresEquis | srichter: OK, but hee needs to finish the release | 19:52 |
| Theuni | (note that i'm not advocating anything. i'm just pointing out the mechanics *g) | 19:52 |
| TresEquis | or somebody does | 19:52 |
| *** gimni has quit IRC | 19:53 | |
| * mcdonc stashes that url away ;-) | 19:53 | |
| *** pigeonflight has joined #zope3-dev | 19:53 | |
| mcdonc | Ththank you | 19:53 |
| mcdonc | Theuni: thank you | 19:53 |
| srichter | TresEquis: Theuni: that feature was hotly contested and should be removed | 19:53 |
| Theuni | np | 19:53 |
| TresEquis | the presence of that egg on the simple page is a thorn | 19:53 |
| srichter | I would prefer removing the release and revert the svn | 19:56 |
| srichter | which would be probably as easy as reverting back to the checkin before the changes, because not much has happened with those packages. | 19:56 |
| J1m | Theuni, I'm unsure what the status of https://bugs.launchpad.net/zodb/+bug/98275 is. | 19:56 |
| J1m | Or even of the details of the problem. | 19:57 |
| Theuni | the status is that i have two proposed solutions available | 19:57 |
| mcdonc | srichter: i just blew zope.app.publisher 3.5.0a1 and 3.5.0a2 away and i'm testing installing zope.tal now | 19:57 |
| Theuni | the details are that if an object is modified during __getstate__ in a ZEO context that the cache is tried to be invalidated for a _current_ version of an object which is guarded by an assertion right now | 19:58 |
| *** pigeonflight is now known as pigeonout | 19:58 | |
| J1m | Theuni, look at the dialog I tried to open to you. | 19:59 |
| Theuni | ah darn. i'm not logged in | 19:59 |
| *** schwendinger has joined #zope3-dev | 20:00 | |
| *** jfroche has quit IRC | 20:03 | |
| mcdonc | srichter: this fixed the dependency chain for at least zope.tal..we'll see if if fixes all the others when the bot runs tonight | 20:03 |
| mcdonc | (at least for some definition of "fixed".. people who install from cheeseshop will likely have a wildly different "zope" than they would if they installed from the kgs) | 20:03 |
| srichter | mcdonc: at this point the zope.* and zope.app.* releases are not very diverged, so it should be pretty okay | 20:04 |
| *** afd_ has quit IRC | 20:04 | |
| srichter | mcdonc: I hope to start a dev-kgs soon that will hopfully be very close to what the latest version in cheeseshop is | 20:04 |
| *** romanofski has quit IRC | 20:06 | |
| mcdonc | srichter: cool. have you had a chance to look at my changes to zope.tal in order to approve a new minor release? | 20:06 |
| *** reco has quit IRC | 20:07 | |
| *** quodt has joined #zope3-dev | 20:07 | |
| *** pcardune has joined #zope3-dev | 20:07 | |
| srichter | mcdonc: I did not get your checkin message | 20:07 |
| srichter | mcdonc: are you subscribed to checkins@zope.org? | 20:07 |
| mcdonc | yeah... | 20:09 |
| mcdonc | which list would it have went to? | 20:10 |
| srichter | checkins | 20:10 |
| srichter | which includes the entire SVN | 20:10 |
| srichter | strange | 20:10 |
| srichter | I think you change is fine, because the dummy engine is never looked up in the CA | 20:10 |
| mcdonc | thats what i thought too, very good | 20:11 |
| srichter | I wonder whether TAL should carry its own ITranslationDomain interface... | 20:11 |
| ignas | srichter: what do you mean? | 20:12 |
| mcdonc | i didnt get the checkin message either, fwiw | 20:12 |
| srichter | well, TAL has support for translating | 20:12 |
| mcdonc | are there archives for that list? | 20:12 |
| srichter | and in order to hook a translation "thing" into it it must fulfill some API | 20:12 |
| srichter | mcdonc: I dunno; I am using the web page now to review the diffs | 20:12 |
| mcdonc | yup | 20:13 |
| philiKON | http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/checkins/2007-November/015863.html | 20:13 |
| mcdonc | philiKON: that was zodb... i made a separate checkin to zope.tal the other day | 20:14 |
| srichter | mcdonc: I think you are good; it would be great to see a 3.4.1 release of zope.tal in this case. | 20:14 |
| *** schwendinger has quit IRC | 20:14 | |
| mcdonc | srichter: is it just a matter of me doing a release to the cheeseshop? do we put it in the KGS? do we make a new KGS? | 20:15 |
| *** pigeonout has quit IRC | 20:15 | |
| srichter | mcdonc: yeah, I can do the KGS | 20:16 |
| srichter | mcdonc: releasing on cheeseshop and updating the KGS are not coupled yet | 20:16 |
| srichter | which I think is the point of the KGS in the first place ;-) | 20:16 |
| philiKON | mcdonc: i wonder if zope.testing can grok a utility function for the 'alltests()' business you're doing in setup.py... | 20:17 |
| philiKON | s/grok/grow/ | 20:17 |
| philiKON | :) | 20:17 |
| mcdonc | philiKON: +1 | 20:17 |
| J1m | I keep threatening to implement a meta-index that routs uploads to multiple indexes. | 20:17 |
| srichter | I think even more important would be to switch to using the test_require option in buildout | 20:17 |
| srichter | J1m: that is what repose does in a way | 20:18 |
| srichter | J1m: that is what repoze does in a way | 20:18 |
| srichter | J1m: I take that back; I misread | 20:18 |
| J1m | interesting | 20:18 |
| J1m | ok, then I didn't. :) | 20:18 |
| ignas | hmm, i'd think uploading to KGS needs different testing than a release to PyPI | 20:18 |
| srichter | it reroutes downloads | 20:18 |
| srichter | ignas: it does; you have to test in the set of the KGS, which is easy to do | 20:19 |
| srichter | the scripts are all setup in zope.release | 20:19 |
| srichter | J1m: but the idea is good :-) it would allow us simulating a zope group for PyPI | 20:20 |
| srichter | J1m: I wanted to do that too, but I dismissed it as too much work with too little benefit | 20:21 |
| mcdonc | srichter: not repoze, but compoze. it allows downloads from multiple indexes but only allows creation of a single index, though. | 20:22 |
| srichter | ok | 20:24 |
| *** jodok has joined #zope3-dev | 20:28 | |
| mcdonc | i think we're also going to try to make a catalog client that is willing to consult multiple indexes to satisfy dependencies.. i think phillip eby might have already started something like this though (at least i heard a rumor of something called 'neat' or.. something) | 20:29 |
| philiKON | nest | 20:30 |
| mcdonc | nest. right. that's what i said. ;-) | 20:31 |
| TresEquis | philiKON: setup.py can take a 'test_loader' argument, in addition to 'test_suite' or 'test_module' | 20:32 |
| TresEquis | I'm going to need to release a new 'eggtestinfo' now | 20:32 |
| philiKON | so the new version of eggtestinfo can plug zope.testing's test runner into setup.py test? | 20:33 |
| J1m | No, it will leave turds behind that the testrunner recipe can be trained to pick up. :) | 20:33 |
| philiKON | well, that's what it currently does, right? | 20:34 |
| J1m | what "it" are you refering to? | 20:34 |
| philiKON | eggtestinfo | 20:34 |
| J1m | TresEquis, we'll have to tell people how to use this plugin. | 20:34 |
| J1m | philiKON, yes | 20:34 |
| J1m | but the testrunner recipe will have to be updated to look for this meta data. | 20:35 |
| J1m | as it is new meta data | 20:35 |
| srichter | that would be really great to have, indeed | 20:36 |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 20:36 | |
| J1m | about as great as text extras. :) | 20:36 |
| srichter | J1m: yes, except that it plays nicer with the setuptools-only world | 20:36 |
| srichter | J1m: I would hate to need to specify both, test_require and extra_requires->test | 20:37 |
| J1m | so don't specify either. | 20:37 |
| J1m | But I support this effort -- don't get me wrong. | 20:38 |
| *** mcdonc_ has joined #zope3-dev | 20:39 | |
| srichter | J1m: I know you want it all in install_reqires, though I think that people have come up with very good examples why you would not want to do this. | 20:40 |
| J1m | I think Deiter had a reasonable example. | 20:40 |
| J1m | I'm tired of arguing over and over about these so I didn't bother arguing with the others. | 20:40 |
| philiKON | i do support benji's law, but if this is a way to practically reduce our ridiculous system of interpdenencies, i'm all for practiciality | 20:41 |
| J1m | I don't think it is. | 20:41 |
| TresEquis | eggtestinfo just modifies the 'egg_info' comman | 20:41 |
| srichter | what is Benji's Law? Nailing all versions? | 20:42 |
| philiKON | test what you fly and fly what you test | 20:42 |
| TresEquis | it adds data about the testing stuff declared in setup.py to a .egg-info/test_info.txt file | 20:42 |
| srichter | TresEquis: so this has to be installed at what point? | 20:42 |
| srichter | I guess we would have to update bootstrap.py? | 20:42 |
| J1m | TresEquis, I assume someone has to add something to their setup.py to get this extension. | 20:42 |
| TresEquis | when you run 'setup.py sdist' | 20:42 |
| philiKON | TresEquis: uh, when you run setup.py egg_info, right? | 20:42 |
| TresEquis | or 'setup.py egg_info' or 'setup.py bdist*' | 20:42 |
| philiKON | which buildout does | 20:42 |
| philiKON | srichter: i think there's setup_requires? | 20:43 |
| TresEquis | sdist and bdist* all run egg_info behind the scenes | 20:43 |
| J1m | srichter, why would we have to update bootstrap.py? | 20:43 |
| philiKON | we don't | 20:43 |
| philiKON | there's setup_requires | 20:43 |
| TresEquis | 'setup.py test' runs it too | 20:43 |
| srichter | J1m: I did not know about setup_requires, *sigh* | 20:43 |
| *** regebro is now known as regebro|food | 20:44 | |
| J1m | srichter, think of setuptools as a long journy of discovery -- like zope. :) | 20:44 |
| *** RaFromBRC has joined #zope3-dev | 20:44 | |
| philiKON | pje *did* write that zope was an inspiration to his work on wsgi and setuptools :) | 20:45 |
| srichter | J1m: he he. I can tell. Geez. It's just a packaging tool | 20:45 |
| * J1m worries that pje tool wwzd too far | 20:45 | |
| philiKON | :) | 20:45 |
| mcdonc_ | if we always did test what you fly, fly what you test, we'd be need to be flying around in this thing.. http://www.benoa.net/usa/kennedyspacecenter/pages/Kennedy%20Space%20Center-07.html ;-) | 20:45 |
| philiKON | well, that's where the moon landing really took place, right? :) | 20:46 |
| *** mkerrin has quit IRC | 20:46 | |
| *** toutpt has quit IRC | 20:46 | |
| mcdonc_ | i think we might be able to streamline that building a little.. take some edges off the corners... then ship it | 20:47 |
| *** mcdonc has quit IRC | 20:49 | |
| *** afd_ has joined #zope3-dev | 20:49 | |
| mcdonc_ | if we can manage some tests_require analogue in buildout, we can unhose the current (very conservative) zope.i18n requirements. alternately, we can just change the software. | 20:53 |
| *** natea|boston has joined #zope3-dev | 20:54 | |
| mcdonc_ | i mean, right now i can "fix" zope.i18n's requirements in setup.py but buildout will choke | 20:54 |
| mcdonc_ | (as it depends on install_requires) | 20:54 |
| philiKON | what exaclty did you want to remove from zope.i18n's install_requires? | 20:54 |
| philiKON | it's tiny compared to others :) | 20:54 |
| philiKON | what we could do is move out the zcml handling stuff | 20:55 |
| *** cursor has joined #zope3-dev | 20:55 | |
| philiKON | that would dump the requirement on zope.configuration, zope.component | 20:55 |
| mcdonc_ | philiKON: see http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2007-November/030281.html | 20:55 |
| TresEquis | philiKON: exactly | 20:55 |
| TresEquis | ZCML processing is the elephant in the living room here | 20:56 |
| philiKON | mcdonc_: but the changes you're proposing are also lies :) | 20:56 |
| mcdonc_ | philiKON: they're more truthful i think | 20:56 |
| philiKON | TresEquis: agreed. i'm mostly to blame for the zope.* packages having zcml processing stuff :( | 20:56 |
| TresEquis | the package itslelf doesn't need to *process* ZCML | 20:56 |
| philiKON | but if somebody depends on zope.i18n for the zcml stuff ... | 20:56 |
| TresEquis | it just exports some for consumption by the framework | 20:57 |
| philiKON | right. how's that differnet than exporting an import? | 20:57 |
| TresEquis | they should have the ZCML-processing eggs themselves as dependencies | 20:57 |
| philiKON | yes, in an ideal world | 20:57 |
| TresEquis | so they shouldn't be getting them as transitive depencences of an egg which doesn't itself actually use ZCML | 20:57 |
| TresEquis | If somebody breaks because an egg which never imports zope.configuration quits depending on it, | 20:58 |
| TresEquis | then we just fix them | 20:58 |
| TresEquis | which is what grok just did | 20:58 |
| TresEquis | it made its "transitive closure" explicit | 20:58 |
| philiKON | zope.i18n should depend on zope.zcmlfori18n? | 20:58 |
| TresEquis | no | 20:58 |
| philiKON | ok, good :) | 20:59 |
| TresEquis | zope.i18n shouldn't depend on ZCML at all | 20:59 |
| TresEquis | somebody who wants to use ZCML from zope.i18n would need to pull in the zope.configuration[zcml] requirement | 20:59 |
| srichter | well, that's not necessarily true; zope.i18n was originally written for Zope 3, which means support for ZCML is intended | 20:59 |
| srichter | this cannot be changed that easily | 21:00 |
| TresEquis | but it doesn't *need* ZCML | 21:00 |
| srichter | because it would effectively break all packages | 21:00 |
| TresEquis | Zope3 already *has* ZCML processing eggs | 21:00 |
| TresEquis | no | 21:00 |
| srichter | where? | 21:00 |
| philiKON | zope.app.zcmlfiles | 21:00 |
| srichter | oh, but who uses that? | 21:00 |
| srichter | come on | 21:00 |
| TresEquis | you don't need to do ZCML to use the zope.i18n egg | 21:00 |
| philiKON | srichter: um... we? | 21:01 |
| srichter | I don't | 21:01 |
| TresEquis | you only need zope.configuration[zcml] if you want to load the ZCML which is inside the zope.i18n egg | 21:01 |
| *** gimni has joined #zope3-dev | 21:01 | |
| srichter | because zope.app.zcmlfiles pulls in too much stuff | 21:01 |
| philiKON | srichter: that doesn't mean nobody uses it :) | 21:01 |
| TresEquis | but if you want to load its ZCML, you are going to have the eggs already | 21:01 |
| srichter | I use it for the Zope 3 source tree, but that's it | 21:01 |
| mcdonc_ | the only thing that depends on the zope.i18n.zcml module is the zcml itself and the tests | 21:01 |
| philiKON | it's functionality that it exposes | 21:01 |
| philiKON | i don't think that's wrong per se | 21:01 |
| philiKON | and that functionality is tested | 21:02 |
| philiKON | i don't see a logical problem here | 21:02 |
| srichter | philiKON: I was irnoic about that trying to point out that if you use the eggs approach fully, you would not use zope.app.zcmlfiles | 21:02 |
| philiKON | it's just that zcml support would be better off outside those eggs | 21:02 |
| srichter | ZCML is a feature of zope.i18n | 21:02 |
| philiKON | right | 21:02 |
| srichter | with any feature in a package that requires a few more deps you can make the same argument | 21:03 |
| srichter | and I agree with philiKON, whether ZCML should be a feature of zope.i18n or not is a different question | 21:03 |
| philiKON | wasn't that why we split up zope in a gazillion eggs? :) | 21:03 |
| srichter | yes, which is the reason I was not happy about it | 21:04 |
| philiKON | i wonder if it had been such a problem if we had split up Zope only to about 5-10 eggs | 21:04 |
| srichter | there is a real cost associated with maintaining a separate package. I think that cost has been evalauted too low by most | 21:04 |
| srichter | philiKON: no, it would have not, because the dependency tree would have been much easier | 21:05 |
| philiKON | i mean, zope is still flexible enough that it doesn't hurt if you don't use it all | 21:05 |
| srichter | also, it would then be no problem to sync the releases a little bit more, creating new packages for all 5-10 eggs whenever versions change | 21:05 |
| TresEquis | testing the loadability of the ZCML within the zope.i18n package tests imposes unreasonable costs on people who might use the egg, without wanting to do any ZCML at all. | 21:06 |
| TresEquis | at least if we move the requirement from 'install_requires' to 'tests_require' | 21:06 |
| srichter | TresEquis: sure, but that's a historical fact | 21:06 |
| TresEquis | those people will be helped | 21:06 |
| philiKON | it's still a lie IMO :) | 21:06 |
| TresEquis | because they mostly won't run the tests | 21:06 |
| TresEquis | Nope | 21:06 |
| *** romanofski has joined #zope3-dev | 21:07 | |
| TresEquis | You could make a case for a zope.i18n[zcml] extra | 21:07 |
| srichter | I tend to agree with philiKON, but I have to think about this much harder | 21:07 |
| TresEquis | but Il Papa doesn't like extras | 21:07 |
| srichter | extras should not be used | 21:07 |
| TresEquis | Why? | 21:07 |
| srichter | read the archives | 21:07 |
| TresEquis | I never bought those arguments | 21:07 |
| srichter | Jim has made that argument on the mailing list before | 21:07 |
| TresEquis | the other logical choice is to split the egg | 21:07 |
| TresEquis | which is *more* expensive and painful | 21:08 |
| srichter | and I do agree with him; using the test extra was a big exception | 21:08 |
| TresEquis | again, if I want to use the egg as a library, and never intend to load / use its ZCML | 21:08 |
| *** timte has quit IRC | 21:08 | |
| TresEquis | I shouldn't need the ZCML requirements | 21:08 |
| *** afd_ has quit IRC | 21:08 | |
| TresEquis | that is the use case for which the extras feature exists | 21:08 |
| *** rmarianski_ has joined #zope3-dev | 21:09 | |
| TresEquis | I know J1m doesn't like them | 21:09 |
| *** ignas has quit IRC | 21:09 | |
| TresEquis | but given packages which satisfy disjoint use cases, I don't see an alternative | 21:09 |
| *** mcdonc has joined #zope3-dev | 21:09 | |
| srichter | TresEquis: I understand thw use case you have perfectly; I am not sure about a solution yet | 21:09 |
| *** afd_ has joined #zope3-dev | 21:09 | |
| TresEquis | 1) split the eggs | 21:10 |
| srichter | TresEquis: I also value testability above everything, so I agree with Jim that extras are harmful | 21:10 |
| TresEquis | 2) use extras (e.g., a 'zcml' or 'tests' extra) | 21:10 |
| TresEquis | 3) use 'tests_require' | 21:10 |
| * J1m prefers to split the egg | 21:10 | |
| TresEquis | 2) is most precise in intent | 21:10 |
| * J1m doesn't agree | 21:10 | |
| TresEquis | ok, 2 is more precise than 3 | 21:10 |
| TresEquis | because there *is* code in eggs which expose 'meta' ZCML which imports zope.configuration stuff | 21:11 |
| srichter | the question is: for how many packages is such a split desirtable | 21:11 |
| *** rmarianski_ is now known as rmarianski | 21:11 | |
| srichter | if it is just for 10-20, I would prefer the overhead of extra packages over the testing problem | 21:11 |
| J1m | I Martins confusion is an excellent example of extras being missleading. | 21:11 |
| TresEquis | hmm? | 21:12 |
| TresEquis | "I Martins"? | 21:12 |
| J1m | Or, more precisly, having code in the package that diesn't work unless some special chant is given at install time is confusing. | 21:12 |
| philiKON | TresEquis: insert "think" where appropriate :) | 21:12 |
| J1m | I think Martins confusion is an excellent example of extras being missleading. | 21:12 |
| * srichter translates Jimisms: I Martins -> I think Martin's | 21:13 | |
| TresEquis | Aspeli? | 21:13 |
| J1m | The "Zope without Zope" thread. | 21:13 |
| J1m | yes | 21:13 |
| * srichter should write a Jim translator bot | 21:13 | |
| J1m | He easy_installed zope.component and expected to use the zcml support that was included. Silly him. | 21:13 |
| srichter | he he | 21:14 |
| *** greenman has joined #zope3-dev | 21:14 | |
| J1m | (well, he used buildout, which is beside the point) | 21:14 |
| srichter | TresEquis: do you know for how many packages you would want to separate the ZCML (in whatever way)? | 21:14 |
| TresEquis | I would prefer that all configure.zcml be moved into zope.app | 21:15 |
| philiKON | +1 | 21:15 |
| TresEquis | meta.zcml could stay in the library packages | 21:15 |
| philiKON | undoing what we did in 3.2->3.3 :) | 21:15 |
| mcdonc | there are currently ~ 200 eggs. i think it'd be reasonable to use the "split the egg" pattern for things in zope.* (putting zcml support maybe in some zope.app package), but i think that at that point zope.app needs to be fewer eggs | 21:15 |
| TresEquis | but I would prefer to have it *not* force people who don't want to use ZCML to install those dependencies | 21:15 |
| TresEquis | so, by J1m's logic, that would be "split eggs with meta.zcml" | 21:16 |
| srichter | mcdonc: I know the overall numbers, but specifcs of the eggs that want to be used as libs would be nice | 21:16 |
| J1m | I don't follow you TresEquis. | 21:16 |
| TresEquis | srichter: any egg outside zope.app should aspire to be libraryish | 21:17 |
| J1m | My logic is split eggs so install-requires is reasonable. | 21:17 |
| TresEquis | J1m: "libraryish" eggs shouldn't export configure.zcml | 21:17 |
| TresEquis | but some export "useful" meta.zcml | 21:17 |
| TresEquis | In that case, the package should either split (to keep depenencies minimal for the libraryish part) | 21:17 |
| J1m | zope.component doesn't export either. | 21:17 |
| TresEquis | or move the ZCML dependencies into an extra | 21:17 |
| mcdonc | srichter: one strategy would be to strive for anything *not* in zope.app to "be straight libraries" (export no zcml), but thats probably impossible right now for b/c reasons | 21:17 |
| J1m | It gets into trouble with meta.zcml. | 21:18 |
| srichter | TresEquis: can we stop talking about theoretical things? I know what would be ideal, but this is not an ideal world | 21:18 |
| J1m | I think it depends a lot on the intended use of the package. | 21:18 |
| TresEquis | I'm proposing real world changes | 21:18 |
| *** mcdonc_ has quit IRC | 21:18 | |
| TresEquis | any pacakge in zope.[!app] which currently depends on zope.configuration should be fixed | 21:18 |
| mcdonc | this problem is completely solveable in packaging | 21:18 |
| TresEquis | by splitting or by adding extras | 21:18 |
| mcdonc | without changing any code | 21:19 |
| TresEquis | except BBB imports, | 21:19 |
| TresEquis | in the case of split packages | 21:19 |
| *** J1m has left #zope3-dev | 21:19 | |
| srichter | BBB will be tough with whatever solution we come up with, mmh | 21:21 |
| TresEquis | mostly, we'll need to fix or supply bbb for the <include package ="zope.foo" filename="meta.zcml" /> folks | 21:22 |
| srichter | that's not all | 21:22 |
| srichter | people expect to say: require zope.i18n and get all the meta and real ZCML configuration with it | 21:23 |
| srichter | we would definitely see no benefit of the work, till the BBB expires | 21:24 |
| mcdonc | what if we didnt split packages, and just changed install_requires to not lie, and made people that wanted zcml install zope.configuration [zcml] | 21:24 |
| srichter | that's not enough | 21:24 |
| srichter | because people already use a simple zope.i18n specification in their projects | 21:25 |
| TresEquis | How can people expect 'zope.i18n' to get the whole ZCML-processing engine ? | 21:25 |
| srichter | requiring zope.i18n[zcml] is not BBB | 21:25 |
| *** agroszer_ has joined #zope3-dev | 21:25 | |
| TresEquis | if they want to process ZCML, their application has to kick it off, no? | 21:25 |
| TresEquis | which means it needs zope.configuration[zcml] already | 21:25 |
| mcdonc | srichter: but it's a way, way, way simpler fix to tell them to install another egg too than touching *every* package | 21:25 |
| TresEquis | ZCML isn't (yet :) majiykally processed | 21:25 |
| TresEquis | thank the gods | 21:26 |
| mcdonc | sorry s/touching every package/splitting every package | 21:26 |
| TresEquis | what appliacation would break if zope.i18n didn't say it depended on zope.configuration[zcml]? | 21:26 |
| srichter | well, we first have to determine whether this is desirable for all packages | 21:26 |
| TresEquis | Not grok, not the Z3 meta-egg | 21:26 |
| TresEquis | (the latter may be only notional at the moment: think of it has having the same dependencies as the latest versions in your controlled-packages.cfg) | 21:27 |
| srichter | okay, so install_requires now lists all packages needed in the ZCML | 21:27 |
| mcdonc | i dont think we can determine that until we concretely figure out whether it works for every package before figuring out whether it will work for e.g. zope.i18n only | 21:27 |
| srichter | this is often more than just zope.configuration | 21:27 |
| TresEquis | any "library-ish" package which contains non-meta ZCML | 21:28 |
| srichter | the more I think about it, the worse it gets | 21:28 |
| TresEquis | and where that ZCML configures using packages which would otherwise not be dependencies of the package | 21:29 |
| TresEquis | is broken ;) | 21:29 |
| srichter | well, that's life | 21:29 |
| TresEquis | it is really an application, and not a library | 21:29 |
| srichter | we need to deal with this | 21:29 |
| srichter | Zope 3 was not written with eggs in mind | 21:29 |
| srichter | I disagree | 21:29 |
| TresEquis | so we should split the "application" bits out from the "library" bits | 21:29 |
| TresEquis | no | 21:29 |
| mcdonc | "fixing" it and testing in in the context of the "major" top level apps (zope3, grok) is one day's work... other folks who have a top-level dependency on 'zope.i18n' (of probably whom there are exactly zero) will need to add another dependency extra to their requirement specifications | 21:29 |
| TresEquis | libraries dont impose "policy-laden" dependencies on their clients | 21:30 |
| TresEquis | applications *are* the clients, and should feel free to impose policy | 21:30 |
| srichter | it's not that I disagree with your definitions, but it deos nto reflect our situation | 21:31 |
| *** schwendinger has joined #zope3-dev | 21:31 | |
| srichter | anyways, at this point a mail to the zope-dev mailing list is in order | 21:32 |
| TresEquis | srichter: I'm arguing that eggs which are outside the zope.app namespace should be mutated to conform with this definition | 21:32 |
| srichter | I think we have determined all the options, none of which is perfect, so we should get feedback from others | 21:33 |
| TresEquis | splitting the library bits from the app bits will improve their usability | 21:33 |
| *** alga has joined #zope3-dev | 21:33 | |
| TresEquis | especially for people who *aren't* already driinking our koolaid | 21:33 |
| srichter | I agree, but a lot of the Zope 3 developers have been burned by over-zealous decisions regarding eggs in the past year and became much more cautious | 21:34 |
| TresEquis | a lot of the burn comes from older decisions | 21:34 |
| srichter | we barely are getting to point were things seem to work; most of us are very tired of interruptions | 21:34 |
| TresEquis | e.g. the choice not to manage dependencies before we even thought of eggs | 21:35 |
| TresEquis | "anything in zope.app can depend on anything else in zope.app" was expedient at the time | 21:35 |
| TresEquis | but *really* painful now | 21:35 |
| srichter | we all know that | 21:36 |
| TresEquis | right | 21:36 |
| TresEquis | so I'm arguing for non-expedient investment *now* | 21:36 |
| TresEquis | to avoid compound interest later | 21:36 |
| *** thruflo has left #zope3-dev | 21:37 | |
| srichter | we all know that too; the fact that you got input on IRC from so many people is a recognition that this is an issue we all see | 21:37 |
| TresEquis | you've been doing some of that investment effort already | 21:38 |
| srichter | but several investments in the last 6 months promised improvements that did not happen | 21:38 |
| *** agroszer has quit IRC | 21:38 | |
| *** pelle__ has joined #zope3-dev | 21:38 | |
| TresEquis | which I think we all appreciate | 21:38 |
| TresEquis | Investment does imply risk | 21:38 |
| TresEquis | sometimes you take a bath | 21:38 |
| TresEquis | but we still learned from the failures | 21:39 |
| TresEquis | (at least, we hope so) | 21:39 |
| srichter | right, and if things go wrong too mcuh, you get burned, which we are now; so new investment oppurtuinities will undergo much more scrutiny | 21:39 |
| *** mcdonc_ has joined #zope3-dev | 21:39 | |
| srichter | Jim has stated multiple times that we should move much slower now and I think there was silent consent | 21:40 |
| TresEquis | fixing our dependency story will help on multiple fronts | 21:40 |
| mcdonc_ | why dont we just remove the eggs from the cheeseshop | 21:40 |
| TresEquis | it will make the eggs themselves smaller, cleaner, easier to maintain | 21:41 |
| mcdonc_ | then it wont be an "emergency" | 21:41 |
| TresEquis | it will keep related policy together | 21:41 |
| srichter | but people depend on cheeseshop already | 21:41 |
| mcdonc_ | right now, people are tempted to actually use them ;-) | 21:41 |
| TresEquis | and away from reusable mechanism | 21:41 |
| srichter | people have deployed applications | 21:41 |
| mcdonc_ | they can't use the kgs? | 21:41 |
| TresEquis | people can change their configurations to point at your KGS+cheeseshop index | 21:41 |
| srichter | mcdonc_: the kgs does only provide links | 21:42 |
| TresEquis | Let's put the eggs somewhere we control | 21:42 |
| srichter | mcdonc_: it also is not a fully official story yet | 21:42 |
| mcdonc_ | srichter: both solveable without making "hard" decisions | 21:42 |
| srichter | anyways, you need to bring up your ideas on the zope-dev mailing list before moving | 21:42 |
| *** greenman has quit IRC | 21:43 | |
| * TresEquis needs to run | 21:43 | |
| *** TresEquis has left #zope3-dev | 21:43 | |
| srichter | for me right now, the status quo is better than anything else; I will consider proposed changes, but think hard about them; but then I am only one developer in the entire community | 21:43 |
| mcdonc_ | me too... sorry... i'll be back | 21:43 |
| *** mcdonc_ has quit IRC | 21:43 | |
| *** mcdonc has quit IRC | 21:49 | |
| *** mcdonc has joined #zope3-dev | 21:56 | |
| *** afd_ has quit IRC | 22:03 | |
| mcdonc | srichter: sorry bout that... we've had a lot of conversation that piled on a whole lot of context that would be very difficult to give to impart to everybody.. if we did ask a question, it would probably need to be on the normal zope list, and i believe it would be need to be framed in the context of "we want to remove all zope-related distributions from the cheeseshop except for zope.interface, ZODB, and zope.component so we can work ou | 22:04 |
| srichter | you broke up ;-) | 22:05 |
| *** jodok has quit IRC | 22:05 | |
| srichter | I think removal is not an option at this point | 22:05 |
| mcdonc | srichter: well, then, we're gonna need to stay in "high pressure" mode to fix this stuff | 22:06 |
| srichter | I think you should make more feasible offers, such as sorting out the ZCML dependencies | 22:06 |
| srichter | anything very interuptive right now will cause a lot of resistence, I think | 22:06 |
| mcdonc | I am talking about sorting out the ZCML dependencies actually as part of "working out some packaging issues" | 22:07 |
| mcdonc | srichter: given that the KGS works, and that no one has been able to actually install anything except the distros i excluded from the cheeseshop, i suspect it's a perfect time to do it | 22:07 |
| *** rcrafton has quit IRC | 22:08 | |
| *** jodok has joined #zope3-dev | 22:08 | |
| mcdonc | s/from the cheeseshop/using the cheeseshop as an index with non-buildout clients | 22:08 |
| *** rcrafton has joined #zope3-dev | 22:08 | |
| srichter | mcdonc: remove the packages you mean? | 22:09 |
| mcdonc | yes | 22:09 |
| srichter | good luck | 22:09 |
| mcdonc | ok, not a good start then ;-) | 22:09 |
| srichter | I do not represent the entire community, but -1 from me ;-) | 22:10 |
| mcdonc | so... given that they stay up there... what do you propose to do | 22:10 |
| srichter | I think resolving the dependencies is a high priority | 22:10 |
| srichter | and people agree with you and Tres on this | 22:10 |
| srichter | we have to think hard on how to do it | 22:10 |
| *** rcrafton has quit IRC | 22:10 | |
| srichter | Tres summarized the three options already | 22:10 |
| mcdonc | ok, well.. fixing the dependencies means releasing new eggs | 22:11 |
| srichter | I think they are all valid; we just have to decide the pros and cons of each | 22:11 |
| srichter | each has they advantages and disadvantages | 22:11 |
| mcdonc | ill note that while we're deciding, we look awful bad | 22:11 |
| srichter | yes | 22:12 |
| srichter | I think that's okay though | 22:12 |
| mcdonc | but maybe i just need to get over that ;-) | 22:12 |
| srichter | right now we are stabalizing the story for the people already using the Zope 3 stack | 22:12 |
| mcdonc | whatever you call it, we're lookin bad ;-) | 22:12 |
| srichter | that is more important to me right now than trying to attract new people | 22:12 |
| srichter | yes | 22:13 |
| srichter | but we are also early adopters | 22:13 |
| mcdonc | which is meaningless to the people who try to use it | 22:13 |
| mcdonc | but anyway | 22:13 |
| srichter | sure | 22:13 |
| mcdonc | ok, given that the cheeseshop releases stay | 22:13 |
| mcdonc | we're going to need some way to test new eggs... i think a private index is the best thing | 22:14 |
| srichter | I think that we should concentrate on the packages that are most likely to be used outside the Zope world, such as z.interface, z.component, z.tal, z.tales, z.pagetemplate | 22:14 |
| mcdonc | maybe even local to our own machines | 22:14 |
| srichter | etc | 22:14 |
| mcdonc | that's fine, all those distributions will work once I release a new zope.tal package | 22:15 |
| mcdonc | but i'll note that doing that is something that you've argued against today... | 22:15 |
| benji | I've not really been following the conversation, but this idea just struck me: perhaps we should treat the cheeseshop as a KGS as far as the packages we manage | 22:15 |
| mcdonc | "someone might be depending on zope.tal to suck down zope.app.publisher" | 22:16 |
| srichter | right | 22:16 |
| srichter | I think it is impossible to treat the cheeseshop as KGS | 22:16 |
| srichter | that would be the same as saying: the entire Zope trunk works in itself | 22:17 |
| srichter | something that we never achieved | 22:17 |
| srichter | one package was always outdated | 22:17 |
| mcdonc | benji: we'd be able to do that if we only made the promise that "installing one meta egg from the cheeseshop will get you all these version-pinned things" or (the current story) "you need to use buildout" | 22:17 |
| mcdonc | the individual subparts will have dependencies that cant be satisfied by the cheeseshop as a KGS | 22:17 |
| benji | ok; ignore me then ;) | 22:18 |
| mcdonc | benji: i for one refuse to ignore you ;-) | 22:18 |
| mcdonc | we need help ;-) | 22:18 |
| mcdonc | my definition of a KGS is this: the "best" distribution of every distribution in the transitive set of dependencies of some set of "top-level" distributions | 22:20 |
| mcdonc | (where those top-level ones might be zope.app.publisher, or others that require "the world") | 22:21 |
| mcdonc | so in a "truly KGS", each 'package' (in the catalog index sense) would have zero or one distributions shown on its index page | 22:21 |
| srichter | yep, that we achieve by nailing versions | 22:22 |
| mcdonc | and no distributions that weren't in the transitive set of dependencies of the top-level thing would exist in the index pages of the KGS | 22:22 |
| *** darrylcousins has joined #zope3-dev | 22:22 | |
| mcdonc | s/top-level thing/top-level things | 22:22 |
| srichter | yeah, but that only works, if you can overlay indices | 22:23 |
| mcdonc | srichter: no, it works if you don't too, you just need to be willing to tell people to use another index for things that aren't in the KGS | 22:23 |
| mcdonc | but we've been over that before ;-) | 22:23 |
| srichter | yes | 22:24 |
| srichter | btw, I have real troubles to understand the meaning of "transitive set"; I looked at the disctionary for refined definitions, but I am still confused | 22:25 |
| *** jsadjohnson has quit IRC | 22:26 | |
| mcdonc | i'm using it to mean the "working set" (in the pkg_resources sense) of an otherwise clean Python installation that has had every "top-level" package installed into it. | 22:28 |
| mcdonc | the result of instalinng all of the right versions of every root of the working set | 22:28 |
| mcdonc | and no more | 22:29 |
| mcdonc | s/every root of the working set/every "top-level" package | 22:29 |
| *** rcrafton has joined #zope3-dev | 22:29 | |
| mcdonc | where the set of "top-level packages" is defined by us | 22:29 |
| mcdonc | iow "we promise that zope.pagetemplate and all of its dependencies are installable from this index" | 22:30 |
| mcdonc | and we promise that if you try the same thing tomorrow, you'll get the same set of eggs | 22:30 |
| *** jsadjohnson has joined #zope3-dev | 22:30 | |
| srichter | ok | 22:30 |
| *** agroszer_ has quit IRC | 22:34 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has quit IRC | 22:46 | |
| *** schwendinger_ has joined #zope3-dev | 22:49 | |
| *** cursor has quit IRC | 23:04 | |
| *** schwendinger has quit IRC | 23:05 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has joined #zope3-dev | 23:06 | |
| *** darrylcousins has quit IRC | 23:08 | |
| *** darrylcousins has joined #zope3-dev | 23:10 | |
| *** regebro|food is now known as regebro | 23:17 | |
| *** stub has quit IRC | 23:18 | |
| *** MJ has joined #zope3-dev | 23:18 | |
| *** alecm has quit IRC | 23:19 | |
| *** spython has joined #zope3-dev | 23:22 | |
| *** natea_ has joined #zope3-dev | 23:24 | |
| *** natea|boston has quit IRC | 23:24 | |
| *** mcdonc has quit IRC | 23:24 | |
| *** pelle__ has quit IRC | 23:29 | |
| *** mcdonc has joined #zope3-dev | 23:33 | |
| mcdonc | srichter: i've made a distribution for zope.tal 3.4.1 and uploaded it to the cheese shop. I also made the tag in svn (which is what I released from). | 23:34 |
| mcdonc | fuck. the description and changelog isnt present on the pypi pages. | 23:36 |
| mcdonc | aha. 'python setup.py register' did the trick. | 23:39 |
| srichter | yep | 23:48 |
| srichter | thanks | 23:48 |
| *** Jell-O-Fishi has joined #zope3-dev | 23:55 | |
| *** jodok has quit IRC | 23:58 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!