IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2008-03-04

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baijumTheuni, new buildout site is not resolving ? http://zopebuildout.whq.gocept.com11:14
Theuniugh. typo.11:14
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Theuniwhen working with those two i keep mixing them up linguisticall11:15
MJTheuni: I was wondering :-)11:15
baijumah. it's working, great ! congratulations !11:15
TheuniMJ: ;)11:16
Theunibaijum: thanks. i hope i can keep it from falling on its face all the time.11:16
baijumTheuni, cann't we host it any ZF servers ? may be you have to ask faasen11:17
Theuniit's not about the hardware11:17
Theunithe hardware will be fine11:17
Theuniit has lots of disk space and the server isn't too busy11:17
Theuniit's more the delicate setup11:17
Theunibuildbot tends to fall apart when you stop looking11:17
baijumah. ok, anyway a would be a better domain11:19
Theunithat's already a different kind of buildbot ;)11:20
Theuniyou can make a domain point to this server though11:20
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baijumTheuni, ah. that would be a good option, can you send details required for DNS setup to zope-web list, I think Jens Vagelpohl is the one who helping out with domains11:27
Theunilet's wait a few days before doing that11:28
Theunii want to get some feedback first, but i'm happy you like it11:29
baijumah. ok11:29
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jayarajcan any one help me ....i found this line of code in worldcookery example...."camefrom = request.get('camefrom' ,  '.' )"  'camefrom' is a hidden attribute in the form. wot does the '.' means???14:46
bigkevmcdwell...what happens if you redirect to "." ?14:47
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jayaraji dont know...the next line is to redirect to 'camefrom'. but i dont understand the syntax of the get function14:51
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bigkevmcdjayaraj: request has a dictionary like interface, and get is a method of dictionaries14:52
jayarajbigkevmcd: ic thank you! now i can figure it out... i thought '.' is given a special meaning or somthing...14:54
bigkevmcdjayaraj: it's the value to use if the dictionary lookup fails14:54
jayarajbigkevmcd: mmm i checked the value is of comefrom after the get, it was nothing. and i found the tal statement in the .pt file which sets comefrom to nothing14:56
jayarajbigkevmcd: so it makes sense now...14:57
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pyqwerHi, I wonder if it's possible to reduce the size of my objects in the ZODB?17:05
pyqwerWhen I do a len(pickle.dumps(myobj)), it has ~ 100kB, when I add my object to the ZODB via Zope3, it has appr. 3 Megabytes.17:06
pyqwerWhy does this happen?17:06
srichterpyqwer: you can only do this by (1) use more persistent sub-objects and (2) use shorter module names17:06
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mgedminpyqwer: where are you adding the object?17:07
pyqwermgedmin: Well, simply to a container object, e.g. a BTree.17:08
mgedminif you are sticking it into some other nonpersistentent object that's already 2.9 megs big, you'll get a 3 meg increase17:08
mgedminbtree should be fine17:08
mgedminis your object persistent? if no, you're increasing the size of the zodb by the size of a single btree bucket full of your objects17:08
mgedminif yes, then you're increasing the size by the size of a single bucket full of persistent references + the size of your new object17:09
pyqwerHmmm, I don't really get it - yes, my object is persistent, if not, I probably could not store it in the ZODB?17:09
mgedminyou could, but...17:10
mgedminthere must be some zodb tutorial that I once read to understand everything17:10
mgedminbut I've lost the link17:11
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pyqwermgedmin: Yes, I have some documentation, I'll have a look into it.17:17
mcdoncpyqwer: "nonpersistent" in the above context means "an instance that does not inherit from the Persistent base class"17:25
pyqwermcdonc: Yes, I thought so, but I did not know that it's even possible to store objects in ZODB that do not inherit from Persistent.17:25
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mcdoncpyqwer: sure... lists... dictionaries... etc.. and instances of things that don't inherit from Persistent can be added too, but they just have the behavior that those "basic" types do.17:26
pyqwerSo, all I did was to let all classes inherit from persistent.Persistent and use only PersistentMapping/PersistentList in my program.17:27
pyqwerBut - when I just need a non-permanent objects, they probably don't need to inherit from Persistent?17:27
mcdoncpyqwer: PersistentList/PersistentMapping are "convenience" things... if you add items to them that themselves do not inherit from Persistent, they'll happily store them, but their own object record in the database is the cumulative size of all of these then17:29
mcdoncpyqwer: as long as you don't attach those "non-permanent" objects to a persistent object anywhere...17:29
pyqwermcdonc: Yes, but that's ok for strings/ints etc., I assume?17:30
pyqwermcdonc: What I wonder so much is that if I do a pickle.dumps(myobj) it has ~ 100kb, while the ZODB increases by 3MB.17:30
mcdoncpyqwer: should be... although commonly people use the XXBTree variants to store large sets... e.g. IOBTree, IIBTree, OOBTree, etc17:30
pyqwerThat should never happen, should it?17:30
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mcdoncpyqwer: well, the transaction size will be be  (roughly) sizeof(myobj) + sizeof(thingyoureattachingmyobto) if myob doesnt inherit from Persistent17:32
pyqwermcdonc: Hmmm, and what happens if I do a commit()?17:33
mcdoncpyqwer: it commits?17:33
pyqwermcdonc: Yes, but does it not delete the old objects?17:33
mcdoncpyqwer: which old objects?17:33
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pyqwermcdonc: The objects that were stored so that a rollback() can be performed, some kind of "backup" objects.17:34
mcdoncdo you mean "will the database size decrease when i delete or replace an object"?  if so, the answer is no (at least for FileStorage).. all writes are appends...17:35
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pyqwerAh, ok, so that may be the reason: In my situation, I create an object and then modify it over and over.17:35
pyqwerSo, in fact, the "older" objects are kept, that's the reason for the huge database increase.17:36
mcdoncpyqwer: ah ok... yeah if you reduce the number of commits you should be better...17:36
ignasevery modification if it is performed in a separate request (transaction) adds the 100kb to the ZODB17:36
mcdoncpyqwer: the storage size decreases when you do a pack (think postgres "vacuum")17:36
pyqwerAh, ok, now I get it.17:37
pyqwerAnd I looked at the database and it seemed as if my object grew up to 3MB while there are ~ 100 of my objects.17:37
ignaspyqwer: i think when I had these problems i had to move some bigger attributes to separate objects17:37
ignaspyqwer: like - if you had an attribute that contains pdf17:38
ignasand are modifying another attribute like "title" a lot17:38
ignasit will make sense to move the pdf into a persistent wrapper object17:38
mcdoncpyqwer: one useful doodad is "tranalyzer"... it shows you transaction content against a FileStorage file...17:38
pyqwermcdonc: Interesting, I'll have a look.17:38
ignaspyqwer: so when title get's modified only the reference to the PDFWrapper will get copied not the whole pdf17:38
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pyqwerignas: Ah, I see. I think a will be able to handly my problem now.17:39
pyqwerBtw., what's the "vacuum" command for ZODB?17:39
mcdoncpyqwer: in fact, as long as you don't pack, you can "undo" by truncating a filestorage file between transactions (although there's no redo then)... and even if you mess up, even if you get close, filestorage will handle it on the next startup and fix itself17:40
pyqwer(using "debugzope")17:40
ignaseither debugzope or zope application management views17:40
pyqwerAnd - is the pack() command efficient?17:40
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ignascan't recall where they are situated by default though, something like ++server++/17:40
pyqwerignas: Ah, ok, and for debugzope? Something like "from packing import pack", "pack()"?17:41
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mcdoncpyqwer: See ZODB.DB.DB's "pack" method17:41
pyqwermcdonc: Great, thanks.17:41
mcdoncand no, it's not particularly efficient... not recommended during "normal" operations17:42
pyqwermcdonc: Ok, so, for packing a ZODB having some gigabytes will take some time.17:42
mcdoncpyqwer: yup, it does a mark and sweep (like old-style Java GC)17:43
ignaspyqwer: look at ""17:43
ignaspyqwer: for an example of ZODB packing17:43
ignaspyqwer: it's the way Zope3 does it through the web UI17:43
pyqwerignas: Ok, I'll have a look at it.17:44
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mgedmin is nice18:31
srichtermgedmin: I agree; I want that code :-)18:31
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mgedminz3c.gibberish is an interesting package name18:32
mgedminz3c.coverage test fails because enscript is not installed on the build machine18:32
mgedminI think it might be better to switch it to use pygments instead and add that as the egg dependency18:32
srichterz3c.coverage: I saw that too18:33
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srichtermgedmin: pygments did not do XML when I tried it, but I guess that's irrelevant for z3c.coverage18:34
mgedminall z3c.coverage needs is python -> html colorization18:34
mgedminhm, zope.component tests fail?18:35
srichtermgedmin: in a bad way too18:37
mgedminImportError: thread?18:37
mgedminbut that's a stdlib module18:37
mgedminhow can there not be one?18:37
srichterright, I was just wondering about that too18:37
mgedmincan repro: bin/py 'import' fails with the same error18:41
mgedminthe traceback shows a nonexistent filename18:42
* mgedmin hates the persons or tools responsible18:42
mgedminah, right, the magic fix is "find -name '*.pyc'|xargs rm"18:43
mgedminit appears that forgot to depend on zope.thread?18:43
srichterhe he18:44
projekt01mgedmin, are you on py 2.5?18:44
srichteroh, so that's what it is importing18:44
mgedminI don't know18:44
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mgedmincould be18:44
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mgedminso, if does 'import zope.thread', then should install_requires=[..., 'zope.thread', ...], no?18:46
mgedmincurrently it doesn't18:46
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mgedminok, this is something I don't understand18:55
mgedminif doesn't directly depend on zope.thread, why do I get eggs/zope.thread if I run bin/buildout in
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mgedminok, requires zope.thread19:00
mgedmina bunch of* require
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mgedminok19:03 requires zope.location, which requires zope.traversing which requires which requires which requires zope.thread19:04
mgedminthrerefore requires zope.thread19:04
mgedminor should19:04
mgedminwhy then doesn't zope.component's buildout get zope.thread when it gets
mgedmindifferent version pinning?19:04
edgordonis there some sort of z3 equivalent to getAuthenticatedMember. I need to change a vocabulary based on the logged in user, and don't have the request available in the vocab init19:05
afd_edgordon: this is covered in the faq19:06
afd_let me search the relevant info for you19:06 is only needed for zope.traversing[test]19:06
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afd_then you can do request.principal19:07
* mgedmin commits fix19:08
mgedmindoes anyone want to make a release of to fix zope.component's buildbot problem?19:08
mgedminsame problem affects zope.i18n19:10
mgedminwow, zope.kgs test is wonderful19:12
mgedminI'm not even going to try to fix it19:12
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mgedminzope.server fails because of the same bug19:12
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rockyso zope3 trunk now runs on python2.5 properly?21:19
J1mnot that I'm aware of21:19
mgedminwhat's missing?21:19
J1mI don't know.21:20
mgedminwasn't it a last year's google of code summer task?21:20
J1mI don't know if it was finished.21:20
mgedmins/google of code summer/google's summer of code/21:20
J1mbut, pretend I didn't say anything. :)21:20
J1mmaybe it works21:20
J1mwho knows :)21:20
mgedminlet's call it "not officially guaranteed to work" then21:21
srichteryes, as far as I know all packages were verified to work with Python 2.521:24
srichterand I am 99% sure we released all packages since its completion21:25
srichterI should run the KGS tests against Python2.5 to make sure21:25
mgedminsrichter: you're a release guru, mind releasing 3.4.1?21:26
mgedmin3.4.0 has a missing dependency on zope.thread21:26
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srichtermgedmin: already on my to do list; I saw your mail; I am just really, really busy; bug me, if I do not get to it in the next days21:27
J1mBTW, has anyone done any perforamnce comparisons of 2.5 v 2.4.21:30
J1mFor some reason, the file-storage packing code runs much slower with python 2.5.21:30
J1mI guess there is another potential problem with going to 2.5 before zoep 2 is ready as we'll undoubtably start creating packages that won't work in zope 2 otherwise.21:32
srichterJ1m: I'll make sure that Zope 3.4 final is Python 2.4 compatible21:33
mgedminbuildbots for both 2.4 and 2.5 would be nice21:34
mgedminI suppose pov could set up a buildbot slave on a core 2 duo (linux, 64-bit) machine21:35
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hazmatrocky, i use z3 with py2.5 primarily21:52
hazmatit works fine for me.. ymmv21:53
hazmati can't address file-storage speed issue... not using it21:54
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