IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2008-06-13

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pcarduneis anyone else noticing that seems to be down?06:18
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afd_pcardune: I think it's related to the server move, it was detailed on the mailing list09:00
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Theunithe downtime has quite some impact11:50
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ARiKA-2Zope_dir/lib/python would be the place where I add the packages I'm creating for only that current instance of Zope, isn't it?12:55
Theuniwhat is 'Zope_dir'?12:59
Theuniand also: is this zope 3?12:59
ARiKA-2Zope_dir would be the path where a zope3 instance is13:00
ARiKA-2and yes, of course I'm talking about Zope 313:00
ARiKA-2I've thouught about developing my website throught Zope 3 and well...13:01
ARiKA-2I'm rtfm... lol13:01
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ARiKA-2It is supposed that using Zope 3 the result will be a website, isn't it? (more cool or less cool hahaha)13:02
ARiKA-2Theuni: I've been some days playing around with zope 3 and It's a cool thing... At least you see a basic hierarchy fs system and then you code on top of that in order to create the website.13:04
ARiKA-2Nice, so nice.13:04
ignasARiKA-2: if I understand your question correctly  - the answer is - Zope3 uses a different model of "setting up" components than the one you expect13:05
ARiKA-2People recommended me to use 2.x release of Zope, but well... 3 > 2 and I want to do my website by myself...13:05
ignasARiKA-2: with zope - you put everything in your python path, what differs is - configure.zcml files that hook everything up13:05
ARiKA-2every thing it's going to work on the website has to have that file13:05
ignasARiKA-2: Zope3 is more for web applications and web frameworks rather than websites, at least IMHO13:06
ARiKA-2where you define things to export to Zope and So.. I understand that.13:06
ignasdoing a website using Zope3 is a bit heavy ;)13:06
ARiKA-2ignas: I have time lol...13:06
ARiKA-2But I want to do a powerful somewhat authoring website...13:06
ARiKA-2and also I got bored of those LAMP systems.... :\13:07
ARiKA-2I liked that concept of "object publishing"... so that13:07
ARiKA-2the filesystem you see in the ZMI is, as I expect, an object database or whatever (that ZODB thing)...13:08
ARiKA-2and the database and it's objects are accessed throught http13:08
ARiKA-2I'm not an expert but I'm beginning reading Zope 3 Book...13:08
ARiKA-2After lots of time of coding a website will appear, like every piece of software lol13:09
* ignas is not even sure how one would start developing a Zope3 based website... but i can suggest:
ignasas quite comprehensible reads about Zope313:10
ARiKA-2what's the real use of Zope 3?13:10
ignashmm, it depends, Zope3 is evolving into a set of libraries13:10
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ignaswith strong support for web applications13:10
ignasat least afaik13:10
ARiKA-2used on python apps?13:11
ignasi mean - what Zope3 does - it adds te Component Architecture thingie13:11
ignaswhich means - you get an extension of Python programming language13:11
ignaswhat you use these new things for - is up to you then, but i'd not try working on a significant python application without zope.component ;)13:12
ARiKA-2ahms... it's nice.13:12
ignasand when you get components - well you can build pretty nice web frameworks on top of it ;)13:12
ignaslike Zope3 and then you do Grok on top of Zope3 to make it more accessible13:13
ignasbut still - the most important thing is the component architecture, as it is pretty much an extended python, with new idioms and new ways of thinking about problems...13:14
ARiKA-2yes yes I heard13:14
ignasI'd compare it to "multiple dispatch" support13:14
ignaswith some downsides and some upsides compared to other "mutiple dispatch" libraries13:14
ARiKA-2well... I continue on my Idea of coding and see what happens13:14
ARiKA-2Zope 2 don't know if will be continued...13:15
ARiKA-2But after I do my own website app in Zope313:15
ARiKA-2has to be pythonic at least13:15
ignasfrankly - the some people think that Zope3 is very unpythonic ;)13:15
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ignasanyway - pythonic is a loaded term that I don't know the definition of13:16
ARiKA-2I'm not a python developer really...13:16
ignasbut I know that zcml is not pythonic ;)13:16
ARiKA-2I know a little bit but I think I have to study something13:17
ARiKA-2(in order to do the website)13:17
ARiKA-2I'm more into C/C++13:17
ignaswell - if you are good with C++ - you can learn to operate pretty much any kind of insane machinery ;)13:18
ARiKA-2yeah yeah...13:18
ARiKA-2A friend of me introduced me into python...13:19
ARiKA-2I read things in and I decided to do my website on zope as a virtual namehost of Apache, lol13:19
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ignasi see, well - If i had to do a zope3 application, i'd probably start with installing zopeproject, and creating a buildout for my application...13:21
ARiKA-2what's that?13:21
vimes656_is down?13:21
ktwilightvimes656_, is accessible13:22
ARiKA-2ignas: it serves for?13:22
ignasARiKA-2: related readings: , and the z3c tutorial i have posted earlier13:22
ignasARiKA-2: sane Zope3 development and deployment ;)13:23
vimes656_ktwilight: I can ping it but get time out error with the browser13:23
ignasARiKA-2: it's a set of scripts that set you up with a sandbox, that makes your project an egg that nicely plugs into Zope313:23
ARiKA-2is going blindly with Zope insane?13:23
ignasno Zope3 checkout, using eggs13:23
ktwilightvimes656_, it works nicely for me :)13:23
ignasusing wsgi to serve your application13:24
ARiKA-2hm I've got zope 3 installed already13:24
ignasusing only modules that you actually depend on13:24
ignasARiKA-2: and how did you install it?13:24
ARiKA-2I've got two installs13:24
ARiKA-2one with the stable release13:24
ARiKA-2and other with the svn checkout13:24
ARiKA-2following the manual, I installed it...13:24
ignasthe Zope Book you mean?13:25
ignaswell - it will work13:25
ignasjust that - personally I would not use that ;)13:25
ARiKA-2give me  a why :)13:25
ignasstability - trunk is not stable, you don't control it13:25
ignasdependencies - your product is not an egg, thus you can't easily add dependencies on z3c goodness13:26
ARiKA-2yes yes, but the one working on the proper where is the stable...13:26
ignasup to dateness  and convenience ...13:26
ignasstart up speed even13:26
ARiKA-2I've got a thing in my mind I want to ask...13:26
ARiKA-2I've been playing with Zope 3 and I don't see any users configuration thing13:27
ARiKA-2do I have to develop something for that?13:27
ARiKA-2(I want some people posting on my website)13:27
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ignasARiKA-2: well - I have no idea if there is a reasonable doc for setting up pluggable authentication utilities13:27
ignasbut that's the name of the thing you will have to set up13:28
ARiKA-2There's a content about that...13:28
ignasif you want your "users" to be stored in your database13:28
ARiKA-2I mean, for implementing Pluggable Authentication and so...13:28
ARiKA-2yes, I want that13:28
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ignasi can't really explain how to do that step by step though13:29
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ignasi'd do:
ARiKA-2but the basis is on the content type of Pluggable Authentication utility13:29
ignasand look for some people explaining it ;)13:29
ARiKA-2on a folder site-management folder13:29
ignasall the parts that you need are there13:29
ARiKA-2and getting a mess around there13:30
ignasyou just have to hook them up13:30
ignasin some specific order ;)13:30
ARiKA-2The book would say something...13:30
ignasquotes like: "agroszer: help, I'm stuck with Pluggable Authentication" in irc logs are very reassuring ;)13:31
ARiKA-2alas it is possible to give the website a cool layout using the ZPT pages, isn't it?13:31
ARiKA-2(as templates for content in the website)13:31
ARiKA-2ignas: well13:32
ARiKA-2after reading the book13:32
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ARiKA-2I can create content types for my website and so :)13:32
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ARiKA-2docs are cool13:32
ARiKA-2but this thing has so less docs...13:32
ignaswhich thing - the buildout/zopeproject thing?13:33
ARiKA-2zope zope13:33
ARiKA-2nah.. ignas If I get a website ready I'll write about Zope...13:35
seletzhi guys13:35
ARiKA-2I'm getting so interested into zope that I printed all the zope book lol13:35
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seletztarek: Why is it that  we still habe no zc.buildout release?13:36
seletzThe release 1.0.5 is clearly broken, we test for it in the current trunk, the test fails fi the patch is not applied etc.13:37
ignasARiKA-2: :)13:37
seletzktwilight: sorry, i got yor pmsg yesterday too late13:37
ktwilightseletz, np :)13:38
seletzktwilight: yes, I did ZODB mounts to reduce the ZCatalog memory load13:38
seletzktwilight: its in the plone documentation on plone.org13:38
ignasARiKA-2: Zope3 seems to have this problem, you get all the documentation for "the brick" "the window" "The hammer" "the nail" and then they expect you to go build houses ;)13:39
seletzAnyone of the zc.buildout deities here?13:39
ktwilightseletz, pm ;)13:39
ARiKA-2ignas: yeah...13:42
ARiKA-2Will be a hard job to do my website lol13:42
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ARiKA-2ignas: at least I got the concept... it simply throws out object contents...13:43
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ARiKA-2and all the filesystem is an object database...13:43
ARiKA-2I'm a lamp user so welll it changes a little bit... hahaha13:43
tarekseletz, hi13:44
ignasARiKA-2: indeed, actually - if you are not too keen on learning by reading code you might want to try
tarekseletz, because either Andreas either Jim needs to do it13:44
ignasARiKA-2: it's a friendly abstraction layer on top of Zope313:44
seletztarek: thats most unfortunate13:44
ARiKA-2want the hard way lol13:44
ARiKA-2ignas: the more hard the more interesting is :)13:44
ignasARiKA-2: eh, these C/C++ people ;)13:44
ARiKA-2I've read about that grok13:44
ARiKA-2not really...13:44
seletztarek: do you know a wayy around it locally?13:45
ARiKA-2but well... I want to know Zope13:45
ARiKA-2Would make me understand better what I do... I think...13:45
ARiKA-2And my website would be more custom13:45
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seletztarek: the thing is, ppl here cannot do fresh buildouts because always sucks the newest zc.buildout (which is broken)13:46
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tarekseletz you can instal a trunk revision of zc.buildout in your python environemnt13:46
ignasor just edit bootstrap.py13:47
ARiKA-2nah ignas I will do it only with zope...13:47
ignasand make it use a specific version of buildout13:47
tarekseletz and send a mail to jim and andreas requesting a release, maybe.. sorry i am not release manager in pypi for this product13:48
ARiKA-2if in my instance I create my python packages for my site into the lib/python dir instance's directory it will work, isn't it?13:48
seletzignas: i treid that unsing some version spec in ws.reqire() there, but that did not work13:48
seletztarek: yes i know -- but you're more deeply in it than me. I've only got access yesterday ;)13:48
ignasARiKA-2: no idea,  i am not using the old style setup since like forever13:49
ARiKA-2so what you use? lol13:49
ignaswell - schooltool is a custom buildout13:49
ignasand ivija is using Zope from a checkout13:49
ignaswith symlinks to the slugs directory13:50
ignaspackage-includes directory13:50
ARiKA-2those are?13:50
tarekseletz i am out for lunch now, if Jim comes back here, try to catch him to ask that, if he doesnot have time ask him to put me in the release manager names (tarek) so i can do it this afternoon13:50
ignaswith everything in src/ivija/13:50
tarekseletz you need to explain him the whole story for this13:50
ignasso when you run you set the PYTHONPATH to include Zope3 and your product13:50
seletztarek: thanks, will try13:50
ignasso one is - ultra old school, and the other is ultra new school ;)13:50
seletztarek: and mahlzeit :)13:50
ARiKA-2I think using that dir lib/python13:51
ARiKA-2I can make all the products of my web13:51
ARiKA-2and then use them on the ZMI...13:51
tareksorry about that, 1.0.5 shouldn't have been released in this state in the first place13:51
ignasARiKA-2: the point is - neither of approaches that I know how to deal with are using Zope3 instances13:52
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ignasin the common kind of way13:52
ARiKA-2so you don't use instances13:52
ARiKA-2you simply checkout the tree13:52
ARiKA-2and use from within there?13:52
ARiKA-2I have last Zope trunk like that :)13:53
ignasor use buildout13:53
ARiKA-2in the stable version of zope I'm using an instance...13:53
ignasnot like any of these approaches is "correct" ;)13:53
ARiKA-2if I re-install zope13:53
ARiKA-2all my ocde would be on the instance13:53
ignaswell - the "re-install" part sounds strange13:53
ARiKA-2and then if I upgrade to a newer zope13:53
ignaswhat platform are you on>?13:54
ARiKA-2then would be my packages on top of a newer ZOpe13:54
ARiKA-2FreeBSD now...13:54
ARiKA-2for reinstall13:54
ARiKA-2I mean getting a new source13:54
ARiKA-2and installing it on /usr/local/Zope313:54
ignasI see13:54
ignaswell - no idea how you deal with that way of deploying Zope3 applications13:55
ARiKA-2so the instance is really using the libs from there13:55
ignasi mean - ubuntu is using eggs + wsgi approach13:55
ARiKA-2"should" work....13:55
ignaswhich means - zope instance is not there13:55
ARiKA-2ahhh ok13:55
ARiKA-2running the zhttpd13:55
ARiKA-2and then using Apache with a virtual name host and mod_rewrite?13:55
ignasnope, using paste13:56
ARiKA-2another webserver?13:56
ignasto hook up "applications" to "servers"13:56
ignasno paste is "glue" ;)13:56
ARiKA-2ah ok13:56
ARiKA-2like inetd13:56
ignasidea is this13:56
ignaspytohn packages are eggs13:56
ignaseggs have entry points13:56
ARiKA-2yeah13:57 yeah13:57
ARiKA-2ah no?13:57
ARiKA-2thought that only served to add packages into your python...13:57
ARiKA-2well... continue13:57
ignasthere is a set of paste specific entry points that you can add to your egg13:57
ARiKA-2so paste calls the entry point13:57
ignaslike paste.server paste.application paste.middleware (the names are fake)13:57
ARiKA-2and the entry point continues on its own...13:58
ignasthe point is - paste can list all the eggs that have some entry point13:58
ignasso when you install and egg13:58
ignasit becomes "available"13:58
ignasthen you have configuration file like "paste.ini"13:58
ignasthat just says13:58
ignasget application "" and run it using "zope.server"13:58
ignason that port13:58
ignaszope.server is in your pythonpath13:59 is in your pythonpath13:59
ignasboth have the relevant entry points13:59
ignasso if you decide to switch server - you install another server13:59
ignasand change the paste.ini13:59
ignassame for applications13:59
ignasif your application is a proper egg14:00
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ARiKA-2so paste is a python-server mapper14:00
ignasdeployment on such a system is just making it available for paste in pythonpath14:00
ARiKA-2yeah yeah14:00
ARiKA-2what I thought to do14:00
ARiKA-2is running the zope server14:00
ARiKA-2(in order to have the ftp also)14:00
ARiKA-2ad having virtual hosts around the apache configuration14:01
ignaswell - I am running schooltool on localhost:7080  and using mod_rewrite in apache to expose it on relevant address14:01
ARiKA-2I want to create a little framework14:01
ARiKA-2for my webs...14:01
ARiKA-2and having on the database tree14:02
ARiKA-2 /mymathssite14:02
ARiKA-2one site is my website14:02
ARiKA-2a personal one...14:02
ARiKA-2implement a blogging thing14:02
ARiKA-2page thing etc14:02
ARiKA-2and the second14:02
ARiKA-2is a subdomain of my site14:02
ARiKA-2dedicated to be a mathematical referene14:02
ARiKA-2I need a powerful site for that14:02
* ignas has no idea what's the best way to set such thing up14:03
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ARiKA-2I'm going to code somethign like plone14:04
ignasit's not related to the way you are deploying your server14:04
ARiKA-2but not so big no...14:04
ARiKA-2ah no?14:04
ARiKA-2the thing is that I need page documents14:04
ARiKA-2that can convert mathematical latex strings14:04
ARiKA-2into embedded pngs14:04
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ARiKA-2ignas: I Think Zope permits lots of things...14:06
ARiKA-2Beginning to believe that Zope is better than whatever LAMP ignas :)14:08
ignasin some ways it is14:09
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ARiKA-2ignas: no... it really is. lol...14:25
ARiKA-2it's a cool concept on web development, that object publishing thing :)14:25
ARiKA-2as far as I know:14:25
ARiKA-2zope have objec definitions on what packages you create14:26
ARiKA-2from those definitions it instanciates files on the ZODB14:26
ARiKA-2so every instance of an object is different14:26
ARiKA-2when you browse around a zope website14:26
ARiKA-2it simply publishshes the content the object was programmed for (generating a webpage)14:27
ARiKA-2coolest idea in the wolrd  lol14:27
ARiKA-2Also objects can interoperate with another objects (the interfaces things), so having an special type of object on a dir permits you access to all its capabilities...14:28
ARiKA-2I have to finish reading the book in order to have more vision on that...14:28
ignasI am using Zope3 for 3 years and 5 months, so i it's a bit more difficult for me to get enthusiastic about it ;)14:28
ignasthe novelty wears off after some time ;)14:28
ARiKA-2I'm a freak...14:31
ARiKA-2I get so enthusiastic...14:31
ARiKA-2ignas: about multilingual things...14:32
ARiKA-2shall I use the translation domains for that?14:32
ARiKA-2Translating my pages with that would be too much work lol14:32
ARiKA-2Now I'm reading...14:32
ARiKA-2I can make pages being containers of translations14:32
ARiKA-2so when you enter the page the proper translation is shown...14:33
ARiKA-2I have to reach that topic on the book... :(14:33
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philiKONhi again :) 3g connectivity from trains is a bit flaky ;)16:20
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seletzHi guys16:36
seletzJ1m: Hi, the zc.buildout release 1.0.5 is still on PyPi. I've fixed the tests in trunk to proove that they're actually fix the problem (as advised by Andreas Jung).16:37
seletzJ1m: The problem at hand is thet buildouts which ran on 1.0.4 now do not longer run -- and a bootstrab does always get the newest version -- rendering peoples development systems rather unusable.16:39
seletzJ1m: tarek would do the release, but he can't, because he has no access.16:39
seletz(on PyPi, I mean)16:39
J1mI cann fix that.16:40
J1mwhat is his pypi id?16:40
seletztarek: I't is, is it?16:40
J1mok, he should be good now.16:41
J1mtarek, thanks! :)16:41
seletzJ1m: Thank you.16:41
seletzJ1m: Sorry to bother you wit this, but having broken releases is rather annoying -- especially for such a important package.16:41
J1mI greatly appreciate your effort!16:42
seletzheh, I just want my buildouts to run again ;)16:42
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ARiKA-2ignas: I continue my reads in the book... it's simply interesting... lol16:48
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philiKON_jelkner: sorry, connection cut out17:12
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ARiKA-2ignas: I'm reading about ZCML... so you always have those things in your packages, isn't it?17:37
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ignasARiKA-2: yes17:50
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ARiKA-2ignas: well ignas I've played with the python on the Zope 318:33
ARiKA-2it is more easy to develop a website than doing php18:33
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ignasARiKA-2: :)18:47
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ARiKA-2I got a question18:52
ARiKA-2given a class to ItemTypePrecondition()18:52
ARiKA-2all the inherited classes from that one would be accepted items on a IContained object?18:52
ARiKA-2(itemtypeprecodition from
ignasi guess18:54
ARiKA-2yes, no?18:56
ignasi think - yes18:59
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ARiKA-2ok, thank you :)19:00
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afd_ARiKA-2: look also at container(someinterface) and contains(some_interfaces) as means to setup container constraints, they're easier to grasp19:35
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ARiKA-2afd_: sorry, I don't understand you...19:38
ARiKA-2that thing is on the apidoc19:38
ARiKA-2isn't it?19:38
ARiKA-2that Help button is useful19:41
ARiKA-2lots of help lol19:41
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ARiKA-2when I generate a content type...20:33
ARiKA-2may I use __init__() method on the interface in order to generate subcontent?20:33
ARiKA-2I mean...20:33
ARiKA-2what's the timeline of creation of an object20:34
ARiKA-2where I should use an __init__() method in order to create a subtree of the object? (this will be saved inside the object really)20:35
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