IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2008-07-31

philiKONbecause it's not a site00:00
philiKONit's the site manager *for* a site00:00
philiKONwhen you do  site.getSiteManager()   you may get a LocalSiteManager instance back00:00
philiKONmgedmin: it's talking about the getSite() helper from
philiKONit returns the last site object that was remembered during traversal00:01
fcorrea_gotcha, will look up for examples on how to use it. So far sm.__parent__ was my best shot00:04
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fcorrea_philiKON, mgedmin: thanks for pointing out. That was easily integrated00:11
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srichtermgedmin: I uploaded 3.4.0c4 to the server; looks all good00:19
srichterKeas is now using c400:19
Tvi'm not having much fun trying to teach zc.buildout to stop a daemon before upgrading it's source files from under it00:29
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CSWookiequodt: How you doing, man?  How's your wife?02:21
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quodtfind man02:21
quodtthat's a wife :)02:21
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gstrattonI'm playing with z.a.generations. It's working fine, but I was wondering whether there is a way to not have to do the start app once - change the config - start app again pattern described in Phillip's book?10:52
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srichtermgedmin: do you have a strong opinion about updating all packages in the 3.4 KGS to the latest bug-fix release?17:24
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philiKONsrichter: it would be good17:30
philiKONsrichter: for instance, there's a new zope.publisher 3.4.3. i suppose that should go into the KGS17:30
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ccombUpdating the kgs is a good idea17:35
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ccombAnd calling it 3.4.0 would also be a good idea17:36
philiKONi think we're getting there slowly17:36
mgedminsrichter: maybe17:36
mgedminI have very strong opinions on things that bug me17:36
philiKONa 3.4.0c1 would be great17:37
mgedminand vaguer opinions on things that don't, just yet17:37
mgedminin general, bugfixes are good and someone wants them17:37
mgedminI don't want 3.4.0 final before all the tests pass on all sane configurations17:37
mgedmincurrently svn co of the Zope3 3.4 branch gives me passing tests17:37
mgedminbut the KGS test script doesn't17:37
mgedminactually, let me try that on a 64-bit system...17:38
* philiKON starts KGS tests17:38
* philiKON thinks we should also integrate some of the grok packages into the 3.4.0 KGS17:38
philiKONmaybe not grok itself17:39
philiKONbut the grokcore.* ones17:39
ccomband martian ?17:39
philiKONyes, and that17:39
ccombgood idea17:40
philiKONi'm still uneasy about the fact that the KGS actually allows multiple versions of one package17:40
philiKONto me this seems quite untestable17:40
philiKONand i suppose the test suite only runs those of the last one17:40
philiKONi'd like to understand *why* we need multiple versions of one package in the KGS17:41
ccomb? which versions of which package ?17:41
mgedminall 3.4 branch tests pass on 64-bit python2.417:41
mgedminphiliKON: afaiu the KGS is versions.cfg, which only allows one version of the package17:42
philiKONwhat's controlled-packages.cfg then?17:42
mgedminthe controlled-packages let people using slightly older versions of versions.cfg download the packages mentioned in there from the index at download.zope.org17:42
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philiKONi see17:42
mgedminactually, I'm a bit confused myself17:43
philiKONso controlled-packages.cfg basically configures what the Zope 3.4 index provides17:43
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mgedminyes, afaiu17:43
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mgedminI don't know *which* buildbots use the d.z.o index instead of pypi17:43
mgedminand if you need special config for that17:43
philiKONand the latest version in that index is always the one that's in the KGS17:43
mgedminso far I haven't created any buildbots, just used the existing ones17:43
philiKONmgedmin: well, you just say in your buildout.cfg   index  = http://....17:43
philiKONyou mean buildouts, not buildbots, right?17:44
mgedmineep yes17:44
philiKONindex = http:/...17:44
philiKONthat's it17:44
* ignas uses versions.cfg instead of index, because else some eggs can mess up your version lists17:44
* mgedmin is thinking of getting a new computer and giving it a hostname of 'buildbox', just to increase confusion17:44
ignasby adding external find-links17:44
philiKONignas: right17:44
philiKONthe locked-down index is suboptimal, to say the least17:44
philiKONversion.cfg is much more practical17:44
rockydo most of you use buildouts that include various other packages into some sort of src dir by way of svn:externals ?17:47
philiKONi don't17:47
philiKONonly for development branches17:47
CSWookierocky: I avoid it if I can.17:47
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philiKONrocky: i much dislike that "ploneout style" of buildout17:47
* mgedmin hates svn:externals17:47
philiKONyes, mostly b/c of that17:48
rockyyeah i'm beginning to really dislike it too ... i'm trying to switch to bzr-svn for my own local dev but that ploneout way of doing things makes things hard17:48
philiKONi think MacYET once blogged about how to speed up the update of svn:externals17:48
rockysvn:externals specifically17:48
* philiKON needs to find th etime to check out bzr-svn17:48
* philiKON hopes to replace svk with bzr-svn17:48
rockyyeah that's precisely why i'm using it ;)17:49
rockyi liked svk... but bzr-svn being written in python makes me feel soooo better... particularly with bzr gaining in popularity17:49
* mgedmin tried svn once and wasn't happy with it17:49
philiKONsvk is perl ;)17:49
* mgedmin tried bzr a few times and tripped over too many bugs to trust it17:49
philiKONmgedmin: what do you use then?17:50
mgedminerr, s/tried svn once/tried svk once"17:50
mgedminplain old subversion + eazysvn17:50
whitrocky: have you played with hg?17:50
philiKONmgedmin: ah17:50
* mgedmin read a scary article about hg17:50
philiKONmgedmin: :)17:50
* ignas tried everything once and wasn't happy with it, because he tripped over too many bugs to trust it17:51
rockyi used hg to work on some third-party project once a bit... didn't have anything over bzr that would make me want to use one over the other (bzr has a burst in popularity which makes me consider it more)17:51
mgedminI keep trying to use bzr, bzr-svn or git-svn17:51
mgedmingit (+ git-svn) shows the most promise because I tried it the least, and therefore didn't give it enough opportunities to screw up17:51
mgedminis a bit confusing though, at times17:51
rockymgedmin: any problems specific to bzr-svn i should be aware of? :)17:51
* philiKON dislikes git for its tendency to encourage working in a cave17:51
mgedminum, how did we end up in this vcs flame?17:51
whithg is sort of the same17:51
whitre: cave17:52
philiKON is a great article on working in the cave17:52
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philiKONanyway, back to KGS :)17:52
rockymy develop mode with bzr-svn seems to be mostly: 1) bzr co  2) bzr branch somesvnbranch somelocalbranch  3) do work in in somelocalbranch17:52
philiKONof course now srichter si gone17:53
ccombabout the kgs, is it a good idea to specify the version of setuptools to 0.6c7?17:53
philiKONi think it would be a good sign if we could get something out there17:53
ccombeverytime I bootstrap a buiuldout, I have a version conflict17:53
ccombbecause the bootstrap gets the latest version17:54
philiKONthat's weird17:54
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ccombso I have to add the setuptools version manually everytime17:54
philiKONwe certainly should update the KGS to the newest setuptools bugfix17:54
* philiKON doesn't understand setuptools's weird version numbering17:54
philiKONit's almost like silvas17:54
philiKONnever getting to 1.017:54
philiKONheck, setuptools isn't even getting to 0.6.017:54
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mgedminour foundations are a bit shaky...17:55
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ccombwho actually is the release manager for 3.4?17:56
philiKONlooks like mgedmin stepped up :)17:57
* philiKON ducks17:57
mgedminexcept for the tarballs17:57
mgedminI don't know how to do those17:57
philiKONlet's forget the tarballs17:57
philiKONnobody needs them anymore17:57
mgedminwe promised17:57
philiKONdid we?17:57
mgedminand by "we" I mean the community17:57
philiKONok fine17:57
philiKONi've done the tarballs before17:57
philiKONi can do them again17:57
mgedmin3.4 will be the last monolithic release or something17:57
mgedminas well as the first eggsploded release17:58
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philiKONi think people will care about the tarball about as much as they would about a sack of rice falling over in china17:59
philiKONbut oh well18:00
ignasmgedmin: can you document the process of switching from monolithic Zope3 checkout to eggs too?18:03
ignasbecause a clear migration path was promised as well18:03
mgedminis 'rm -rf Zope3-checkout-dir && zopeproject new-stuff' clear enough?18:04
ignasmgedmin: did that work for you?18:04
mgedminnever tried18:04
mgedmintesting is for wussies18:04
mgedminat the moment I'm more concerned with failing tests than with tarballs18:05
mgedminoh, buildbot, why are you so complicated to use?18:05
mgedminand by 'buildbot' I actually mean buildbot, this time18:05
mgedminbtw before there's a clear migration path, it's be nice to have a clear destination18:07
mgedminwhat is the current officially-recommended way to start a new zope3-based project?18:08
mgedminis it zopeproject?18:08
ccombI suppose so18:10
ignasI would recomend using zopeproject18:10
ignasI tweak it a bit from what I can recall18:10
ignaslike - adding and a Makefile18:10
ignasand editing buildout.cfg to use KGS from versions.cfg18:10
ccombbut it would be nice to improve zopeproject to let it offer to choose the version18:10
ignasand maybe drop find-links from other packages by default18:11
philiKON ignas: zopeproject could use a make-over18:11
ignasi know ;)18:11
philiKONignas: grokproject, its cousin, actually has some very nice features18:11
philiKONthe could make their way back to zopeproject18:11
philiKON(including minor things like
ignasi mean - when yvl wanted my help setting up a new Zope3 project, i used zopeproject and then mangled it some more to make it usable18:11
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ignasseems like it worked18:11
philiKONand yes, it shoudl also use the KGS version.cfg18:11
philiKONi need to find the time to update it18:12
ignasas in PoV we have the tradition of "one click build" i do some Makefile stuff too, to have "make run" "make test" working on a mostly clean machine18:12
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ccomb´╗┐philiKON don't you want to move it from the sandbox to the svn root?18:13
philiKONccomb: when it has tests :)18:13
ccombaaah :D18:13
philiKONccomb: its being in my sandbox also allows me to neglect it :)18:13
philiKONor even to abandon it18:14
philiKONwithout feeling to bad about it18:14
philiKONbut you're right18:14
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philiKONit should probably move to the top18:14
philiKONbut only if i'm not the only one maintaining it18:14
mgedmindoes it have a test suite?18:15
philiKONfortunately i found a few who are stupid^H^H^H^H^H^H encouraged enough to mantain and improve grokproject18:15
philiKONmgedmin: there are no tests that test zopeproject itself18:16
philiKONzopeproject's template generates some testing stuff18:16
ignasphiliKON: i would gladly help you maintain it if starting new projects was a day to day activity, but it's not ...18:17
philiKONright... ;)18:17
mgedminwell, I've got one upcoming migration from monolithic zope 3.4 checkout to a buildout-based eggs-using project18:18
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philiKONmgedmin: did you actually use the checkout?18:19
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philiKONor a release?18:19
ignasa checkout18:19
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mgedminI started using releases in production, then switched to svn checkouts of branches18:29
mgedmineasier to get bugfix updates that way18:29
ignasand the integration is easier from what I can recall18:32
ignasjust copy/symlink the slug18:32
ignasand run z3.py18:33
ignaswhile release has some weirdo instance stuff going around18:33
mgedminno, integration is more or less the same18:33
mgedminwe use instances18:33
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ignaswhen deploying18:35
* mgedmin is talking about the production environment, yes18:35
mgedminour development environment is a svn checkout wiht a makefile18:35
mgedminthe makefile checks out zope etc.18:35
mgedminif needed18:35
srichtermgedmin: I went into the tunnel on the train before you had results for 64-bit18:38
srichterwhat was the outcome?18:38
mgedminzope 3.4 branch in svn passes all the tests run by default with 'python2.4' on both 32 and 64-bit linux18:38
mgedminKGS doesn't18:39
mgedminI also haven't tried the 3.4 branch with python2.5 yet18:39
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ignasmgedmin: could you try python2.518:47
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srichtermgedmin: yeah, the KGS is tricky to get all tests passing19:10
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srichterif you get it done, then that's phenomenal19:10
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mgedminshould zope.testing 3.6.0 be in the 3.4 KGS?20:15
benjiI wouldn't think so, 3.4 is in relese candidate stage, so feature release changes shouldn't be put in it (which 3.6.0 is)20:17
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mgedminmakes sense, I guess20:21
mgedminI'll want to release a 3.5.1 bugfix release then20:21
mgedmin(after I make the bugfix, of course)20:21
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* mgedmin wants the test runner to wrap its dots again21:34
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mgedminpy2.5-32bit-linux coming soon22:37
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mgedminanyone familiar with this sort of zc.buildout error?
mgedmin"IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/"23:19
mgedminworked fine before I upgraded the OS from dapper to hardy23:19
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mgedminoh, wow, that file actually is a broken symlink23:20
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