IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2009-01-16

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jdbrowneHello, I am trying to understand how the introduction of abstract base classes in python3 impact the zope.interfaces used by Zope3. I am hoping that it is not really useful directly for Zope3 the appserver and that it is a low-level plumbing that can make the internals of the zope.interfaces simpler, maybe more robust, maybe enabling new features. Am I right?16:03
mcdoncjdbrowne: that may be true... but there's one thing that ABCs dont do that interfaces do... you can decorate *instances* (and other kinds of objects) with interfaces16:04
mcdoncfrom zope.interface import directlyProvides16:04
mcdoncdirectlyProvides(object, ISomeInterface)16:05
mcdoncabcs dont handle this, and it's a quite common thing to do, at least in zope apps16:05
mcdoncso some of the guts may be improveable by coopting abcs, but maybe it'd not be worth it given that they cant do that16:05
jdbrowneok, also the bare abc can not be applied to a function nor a package. I wonder why they chose this approach then. It is maybe lighter while still helpful to the majority of the cases they identified.16:10
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mcdoncjdbrowne: i dont think the ABC folks ever really understood the use case for interfaces16:12
mcdoncparticularly that an interface is not about the type, it's about an object16:13
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mcdonc(and as such it's implemented as metadata rather than something baked into the type hierarchy)16:13
mcdonci suspect they hold this idea in contempt; i dont really know why other than maybe it has the name "zope" on it16:14
jdbrowneIn this article on the topic from 2005, Guido van Rossum acknowledged that "two of the largest 3rd party projects in Python (Zope and Twisted)" needed interfaces. They must have had some reasons to use the abc.16:15
mcdoncguido and jim rarely agree on anything; guido was employed by zope corporation as interfaces were being invented... so he understands them quite well16:16
mcdonci dont know what caused him to change his mind16:17
jdbrownemaybe the twisted and zope people did not have the time nor interest in lobbying and explaining while Phillip J. Eby is morepassionate about the subject.16:17
jdbrownethis does not seem rational, I'll try to go deeper into the matter16:17
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mcdoncjdbrowne: ftr, i think there's some fundamental misunderstanding about the basic role of interfaces16:18
mcdoncthe fact that interfaces declare "methods" and "attributes" is confusing to folks16:19
mcdoncor maybe the name interfaces entirely16:19
mcdoncbecause interfaces as used by zope are really about run time type identification16:19
jdbrownePhillip J. Eby is the author of two peps on the abc, the one that got accepted pep3119 'introducing abc' and another one 3124 called "Overloading, Generic Functions, Interfaces, and Adaptation"16:19
mcdonc(at least as we use them in the zope component architecture)16:19
ARiKAinterfaces are simple contracts that instances providing that interface have to have...16:19
mcdoncand that runtime type identification doesn't require any of the method and attribute declarations on the interface; it just needs to be a unique interface16:20
mcdoncARiKA: well, that's the misunderstanding i think... it's not a contract16:20
ARiKAwell... it should define the appearance of an instance16:20
ARiKAnot it's logic16:20
mcdoncyou can document *intent* by defining methods and attributes in an interface, but all that is ignored in the type identification machinery16:21
ARiKAthat's what I understood reading and rereading...16:21
jdbrownethe misanderstanding stemming from interfaces just being tags for the registry and optionaly offering validation16:21
mcdoncjdbrowne: right... and hardly anybody uses the validation stuff16:21
ARiKAjdbrowne: by validation you mean the .providedBy and the rest of methods?16:22
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mcdonci think he means "from zope.component.verify import verifyObject"16:22
mgedminmaybe verifyObject?16:22
mcdoncor the way interfaces are used in zope.schema16:23
ARiKAwell.... can I ask something? ^^16:23
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jdbrownethe method validateInvariants for instance is part of validation for instance16:24
jdbrownevewy powerful the invariants, I can't ask SQL not the various XML schemas to encapsulate invariants while zope.interfaces can16:25
mgedminforms use that, but hardly anything else16:25
mgedminI'm pretty sure you can express invariants with SQL16:26
mgedminbut I'm not a RDBMS expert16:26
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mcdoncit might have been better if we'd created e.g. a zope.rtti package that zope.interface was built on... the rtti stuff would be "from zope.rtti import implements" and "from zope.rtti import directlyProvides" and those would decorate classes and instances with markers that weren't named "interfaces"... then the interface package could build on top of that by providing the validation stuff16:27
mcdoncthe zope.component package would then not need zope.interface at all, just zope.rtti16:28
jdbrowneAh, i think you can't :). For instance, take a configuration a composed of n sections and maybe also n paramters. The define the sections as composed of n parameters and try to ensure in SQL only that the parameter is part of  either one section or one configuration but not both16:28
jdbrownethe reply was for mgedmin16:29
benjiif you guys are really interested in the history, one of the leading proposals before ABCs were chosen was PEP 3133; see
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mcdonci guess we didnt stamp our feet petulantly enough as the choice was being made.... ;-)16:33
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Theunimcdonc: do you have to use words that i need a dictionary for? *G16:34
mcdoncTheuni: aw come on that description was compact and apt ;-)16:34
mgedminjdbrowne: can't you write custom validation code as a trigger and reject transactions that would violate your constraints?16:35
Theunimcdonc: your syrup still didn't manage to come to me :)16:35
mcdoncTheuni: gawd... that stuff's gonna be tasty when it gets there!16:36
mcdoncit ages well i've heard16:36
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TheuniI'll make sure I'll leave a spoon for you to try when you come around next time.16:38
jdbrownemgedmin: this is a way but you are going to use a non standard SQL extension quite specific the vendor16:38
Theunimcdonc: "petulantly" doesn't even appear in my dictionary16:38
mgedminwho needs a dictionary when there's google16:39
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Theunii was referring the dictionary that google uses when I ask for an EN-DE translation16:40
jdbrownemgedmin: with the zi, all the validation code is encapsulated in the same code. In SQL, you have the table definition, and you have the trigger on the side, and no real way to embed the trigger in the table. It is a a global function in a way16:41
jdbrownemgedmin: forget the last sentence, this is not correct16:43
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jdbrownebenji: thanks16:49
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mcdoncTheuni: how about "petulant"16:56
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